Igawa and Tigers Struggle Against Dragons

Tigers baka,

No word on a return date for Mr. Sheets, but I believe I understand the frustration that results from tonight's atrocious offense. Every time Hanshin has had a slide, it has been due to that same problem. It is clear that a failure to score results in losses! This problem needs to be addressed at once. And I know this topic is ancient (much like the man in question), but why is grandma Kataoka still given playing time? Okada seems to have taken leave of his senses.

I'm sure I'll get criticized for saying that, but oh well.

Certainly you will be critisized as your comment is very ill informed. If we are looking at failed offense then we can point to Toritani, Yano, Hiyama, Fujimoto, Sekimoto, and Akahoshi all of whom underperformed. Kataoka is not the catalyst for this defeat - this was Igawa's terrible pitching.

I'm amazed! An English-language Pro Yakyu site, and with tons of Hanshin fans to boot! I feel like I've discovered Treasure Island.

Tonight's game was painful, and very arduous indeed. I think Igawa did decently, though we didn't lose the game, Chunichi won it with several excellent strikes.

Last night (September 20), that one we lost with that horrible first (and second) inning.

Overall it was a lousy effort by all concerned. I think Yano went 0 for 4 with runners in scoring position, but yes, it was a valid point why you fill the number 3 slot with a player whos batting average is hovering around the Mendoza line 2 nights straight.

While Sheets is out (any word on that?) I'd like to see Hiyama/Spencer hit in that slot. I'd also prefer Sekimoto to Kataoka at first.

In saying that, no need for panic stations yet. A win tonight will drop the magic number to 6, and will get the ship back on course.

Hey, any of you guys see the fantastic defensive play by Araki (yes?) of the Dragons? First a diving catch, rolls, leaps to his feet and he flips the ball to first out of his glove. He didn't have to take the ball out of his glove so he did a Derek Jeter glove-flip. The play of the week!

Okada kept Igawa in the starting rotation because he wanted him to get his confidence back as the Tigers' ace. I think if Igawa had pitched one or two good games in the last 2 months he may have found his rythym and we may have seen the Igawa of 2003. Sadly (as I am a Tigers' fan) that is not the case. Okada's calculated gamble in keeping him in the rotation has not worked. His slider hangs, his fastball, which was 150-154 kph two years ago, is now 146.

Maybe they should move Nohmi into Igawa's slot.

I don't think Hiyama would be much use in the three position - he is fading as a batter. Spencer, maybe, but I have yet to see enough production. Sekimoto is also not really effective this season and offers no real advantage at first (in fact less because he isn't capable of hitting deep).

I'll go with Okada on this matter - he knows what he's doing far better than us. Kataoka hasn't started well, and may well be pulled for Sekimoto if Okada decides that this is a better idea, but he gets on base regularly and is defensively far superior to Sekimoto.

It is possible to let your prejudices run away with you and be blinded to the facts. For example, the people on this web site who are still claiming that Kiyohara is on steroids despite having no evidence at all for the supposition. Likewise, Kataoka who is not batting well. But on a team that is not batting well this does not stand out. He has had a long time out and needs time to get back into the swing of things.

I've made it pretty clear what I think of Katoaka, but I'd rather a guy with a decent batting average in the number 3 slot. Batting ahead of Kanemoto you're always going to get a lot of good pitches to hit.

Ironic you're using the term "fading" for Hiyama. What do Kataoka's stats say? But hey, don't let statistical facts get in the way of a good argument!

Hiyama hasn't scored or batted in as many runs as in past years, and he hasn't even outscored the under-performing Spencer this year. He has, however, played pretty consistently throughout the season whilst Kataoka has played in fits and starts. It is hard to develop any rythym or consistency when you play that way, and Kataoka always performed better when he had a good run. The comment that Hiyama is is fading looks to be justified by the evidence.

I mentioned unreasoning prejudice in my last post and this is exactly what is being displayed here. There are no real grounds for disparaging Kataoka like there are no real grounds for disparaging Kiyohara. I do not find myself even considering your opinion valid as the reasons you have given for it seem to be tenuous and not related to any facts.

Okada has again started Kataoka at first (and batting third) which shows he must be happy with the situation (he could always start Sekimoto).

At least my prediction was accurate. Oh well, I suppose that Okada knows best. On occasion, but this truly is a ridiculous exception!

My dislike of Kataoka aside, what manager plays a man with an awful batting average in a pennant race? What does he know that he's not telling? If Kataoka starts playing well, I'll be the first (well, maybe second) to give him credit, but until then, I have to follow the stats.

Another reference was made to Kiyohara re. steroids. I'll refrain here and see what other posible explanations there are. Here's my issue: (and yes I realize this is a Hanshin thread) when I came to Japan, Kiyohara was roughly my size. He now resembles a cow out to pasture. How does someone gain so much weight so fast, unless he was locked in an izakaya at a nomihodai/tabehodai? I'm not trying to be argumentative, but reality has to be faced.

- [Re: Kiyohara's bulk up ...] when I came to Japan, Kiyohara was roughly my size. He now resembles a cow out to pasture. How does someone gain so much weight so fast, unless he was locked in an izakaya at a nomihodai/tabehodai? I'm not trying to be argumentative, but reality has to be faced.

That sounds like your reality. Part of the reason he gained weight so fast is because he put on about 8 kilos around his belly. He doesn't exactly have abs of steel now does he?

Also, Kiyohara is a Japanese nationalist with reputed underworld connections. Taking anabolic steroids would be completely out of character for him.

I remember Kiyohara 15 years ago and he was a big man, 188 cm and close to 100 kg. Now they list his weight as 104 kg, but he looks closer to 110 to me.

- Kiyohara is a Japanese nationalist

I'm not sure what you're saying; could you clarify that, please?

Torakichi,

I have heard that Kiyohara plays golf with yakuza members and that he has gangster friends. By "nationalist" I mean he is right wing like his friends. Maybe I'm wrong, that is just what I have heard over the years.

For Tigers' fans, I think they should go all out and try to win the 3 game series against the Carp which starts today. It is doable as the Tigers are a better team. If they sweep the series there is a possibility that they could take the Central League pennant at home against the Giants next week.

OK, I get it. Thanks for that. The only thing I know he did for sure (insofar as I saw it on TV) is buy his parents a new house as soon as he got a big payday.

Far be it from me to feel sorry for a Senshu (southern Osaka) lad that wanted to join the Giants so much he blubbed when he wasn't picked, but it must be hard being such a rumour magnet.

- I do not find myself even considering your opinion valid as the reasons you have given for it seem to be tenuous and not related to any facts.

LOL! I'm not here to tell you I told you so, but I had to laugh while watching the game considering Sekimoto and Hiyama both scored 2-out RBIs in tonight's game (September 21).

Christopher, I accept and respect your opinion, and anyone's opinion, yet you feel you need to say I have no valid comment to make. That's sad and insulting Christopher. How old are you?

No two people see the game the same way, so stats are always a good measuring point. Hiyama statistically has dropped off, but has played well above the level of a player you're defending. Why is that by the way? You fail to mention Kataoka's stats dropping off (which you've charged Hiyama with), and Spencer and Hiyama have both done remarkably well considering they have been swapped over and over again during the season.

You're quite selective in your criticism so I find it extraordinary you charge me with having "blind prejudice."

- The comment that Hiyama is is fading looks to be justified by the evidence.

No Christopher, you have to justify it. The evidence, i.e. stats, suggest he is doing a fine job.

I'm still getting past the fact you don't "consider my opinion valid." That's extremely disrespectful. I have played and watched baseball for decades. What an outrageous and offensive accusation.

- Certainly you will be critisized as your comment is very ill informed.

To another poster? Christopher, I find it offensive that you cannot simply disagree with another opinion but instead have to question the poster's credibility.

Why do you think you are "more informed" than other posters? No twisting comments please. I've asked you a direct question and I expect a direct answer.

- ...There are no real grounds for disparaging Kataoka...

True, but a bit of friendly mikky taking has always been something I've enjoyed about watching sport. I was interested enough to check the stats on Kataoka (lifetime avg. 273) and Sekimoto (avg. 289) - Doesn't seem to be that much in it in terms of offense, though Kataoka has consistently hit more homers in his, admittedly longer, career. How do the two players compare defensively? I Have to admit I've never seen Kataoka play!

Ref: Hanshin Tigers' site.

Oops guys, let's drop it. We won. We are all Tigers' fans.

But regarding Kataoka, he has got a lot more fans than Sekimoto or Hiyama. He is a free hitting batter. But the reason can't just be calculated with average alone. If you look at the number of walks, Kataoka leads the other two. That means Okada-kantoku believes on Kataoka's judgement on balls and strikes. After all, Okada wants runners on base for Kanemoto. It's worked on many occasaions.

Sekimoto simply isn't good enough to be the third batter. Spencer is a good choice as he is also good judge of the outside balls.

As Chris said, Kataoka needs a bit more time in the field. His play yesterday againts Fukudome was awsome. The disappointing player was Toritani, who just fumbles when runners on base. His average is fading, especially when runners are on base!

I, too, wish to see Sheets play the full season and bring his RBI total up above 100 above along with Imaoka and Kanemoto.

Tigers Baka - to deal with the points that you raise in your posts:

Before making a judgement it is best to consider all available evidence rather than just a narrow selection that fits your prejudices. Averages are useful as a starting point but do not tell the whole story. There are other factors to consider in how valuable the player can be to the team. Whether he is a match winner or not and so on. Your posts indicate a consistent inability to see these other factors, hence my comments on the value of your opinions.

In regard to my comment about the other poster - when someone calls Kataoka grandma when there are other active players older than him on the Tigers' team, you have to question the poster's basic knowledge. (His comments about Kiyohara also betray a lack of analysis.) As you may have noticed last night, Kataoka was defensively perfect and also produced a vital hit.

What I found ironic in this series was that Tigers performed so well against the best the Dragons had to offer and so poorly against two average pitchers who both pitched poorly. Try and explain that by a reference to averages. A realization that value is not measured by figures alone would be helpful.

Now as for Kiyohara - you have a player who is very rich. He can and does enjoy the high life - fine foods and alcohol. As a result he begins to expand but he keeps himself fit so he can still perform. Live the good life for a few years and you will see your waistline expand, especially as you get older. Keep on training and your body will bulk out. It's nothing to do with steroids, but it's quite mundane and no one really likes a mundane explanation when a more exotic one will do. The problem with the exotic explanation is that no one has produced a shred of evidence for it. This is an issue which is proveable - where is the evidence?

Regarding the proof of Kiyohara's steroid use, the reason this cannot be proven is that Pro Yakyu is not testing its players. Herein lies the problem. I was, however, delighted to hear that testing may begin as soon as next year. It's long time overdue in Japanese baseball and will help to even the playing field.

On another topic, has anyone heard about Sheets and how he's doing? His bat has been both a blessing and a curse this season (all those double plays - does he lead the league?). But even with his foul ups, it will be nice to see him at first rather than a part time player.

Finally, for all Hanshin fans, if Hanshin advances to the Nihon Series, what would your starting rotation be? How many pitchers and who? Interested to know what you guys think.

- Finally, for all Hanshin fans, if Hanshin advances to the Nihon Series, what would your starting rotation be? How many pitchers and who? Interested to know what you guys think.

Assuming it goes seven games:

1. Shimoyanagi
2. Fukuhara/Sugiyama
3. Igawa (if he behaves)
4. Shimoyanagi
5. Fukuhara/Sugiyama
6. Igawa
7. Shimoyanagi

Sheets is this year's strikout king with 139 strikeouts. The leader in double plays is Tyronne Woods with 22, and surprisingly, Imaoka is second with 21. Sheets is down the list at 15. As for playing, there has been no information.

With regard to proof of whether Kiyohara used steriods there has never been any proof beyond speculative rumours (the exotic in preference to the mundane) by the ill-informed. The question of steroids in Japan was covered in another thread, but I will say don't assume that just because MLB is awash with steriods that Japanese baseball is the same.

Christopher I actually agree with you that stats don't tell the full story. E.g., our so called "ace" Igawa who still has respectable numbers has been owned by the Dragons this year, just like we have beaten up on Kawakami.

I think everyone has prejudices against certain players, but like I said, I've tried to take a balanced view (of course I want to see the Tigers succeed), and as an ex-player and long time viewer, I also certainly don't discredit the value of stats. In this case I have made an assessment taking all factors known to me into account.

I really don't want to argue over this again and again, it's getting very boring for me and I apologize to the other posters on this site, but will state that I respectfully disagree with some of your thoughts over who's better at number 3. Which draws me to my next point. The only thing that has really riled me, I find it totally offensive that I make an argument backed with fact, I watch almost every Tigers game and you assess my opinion as invalid.

Like I said, what makes your opinion any better than any other on this forum? Please try and respectfully disagree rather making attacks on the credibility of other posters. That's all I want to say on the matter.

I have actually had the pleasure of meeting Sanshintigers at a Tiger vs. Yokohama game this year and he is a San Diego native with considerable playing experience (pitcher I believe) and an astute observer of the game. He is very informed. I actually appreciate the humour he brings to this board which I sometimes find refreshing on what can sometimes be a humourless board.

He is a heckler as I am, and I'm sure many on this board are or have been. His shots are no different to what you'd hear from the gaiya, they're just posted on this board instead.

Of course nobody knows about Kiyohara's habits, and I've heard more than a few Tigers fans bag Kataoka's speed. I think that's where the "granma" comment stems from.

Come on guys, let's have a bit of fun, too! All Tigers fans want the best thing for the team, let's just disagree a little more diplomatically and keep personal attacks and credibility out of the picture.

Going to the Tigers game tomorrow at Muscat Stadium in Kurashiki, very excited! Go Hanshin!

- Okada's calculated gamble in keeping him in the rotation has not worked.

It might help Igawa if he is dropped down in the rotation some. Though I think Okada put him as the ace for his confidence.

Like I've said numerous times before, I think it's a mental problem with Igawa this year, which is like a unknown enigma to me.

- I don't think Hiyama would be much use in the three position - he is fading as a batter. Spencer, maybe, but I have yet to see enough production.

I would have to go against Spencer batting third. So far he's been a terrible option this year. I would be against batting him third. Hiyama is a better option than Spencer. Right now I don't think Kataoka is a viable option at number 3 in the lineup. Kataoka should be down in the lineup farther. He is perfectly fine, in my opinion, to start, just down in the lineup.

It will help a lot when Sheets comes back. I still haven't heard any news on Sheets.

- My dislike of Kataoka aside, what manager plays a man with an awful batting average in a pennant race? What does he know that he's not telling?

He is walking though, he has a OBP of .377 to Sekimoto's .342. [Tiger 2005 Stats - Borisov's Pro Yakyu] Also, Sekimoto's power numbers have been nonexistent. I'm sorry, but I will have to go with Christopher on this one. I would start Kataoka over Sekimoto. Kataoka has more power than Sekimoto, and that's what Hanshin is lacking without Sheets.

- On occasion, but this truly is a ridiculous exception!

Yet again this is not Okada's fault. A manager can only do so much, then the team has to do something. Hanshin is 79-52-5 [http://www.geocities.com/s_borisov/jb2005/clstandings.html">Central League Standings - Borisov's], 6 away from the magic number needed to clinch the Central League [Daily Yomiuri]. Okada is doing something right this year as manager or the Tigers wouldn't be playing as good as they are.

- Doesn't seem to be that much in it in terms of offense, though Kataoka has consistently hit more homers in his, admittedly longer, career.

In terms of career offense, Kataoka has been better than Sekimoto. Going into this year, Kataoka has had a higher slugging pct (.427 to .414) and higher OBP (.369 to .366). Kataoka has a career OPS of .796 to Sekimoto's .752.

My choice for Nihon Series rotationwould go like this:

1. Shomonoyagi
2. Andoh
3. Igawa / Egusa
4. Sugiyama
5. Fukuhara / Shimonoyagi
6. Andoh / Shimonoyagi

Each starter only goes 6 innings per game, then 7th, 8th, and 9th by JFK combo if we lead or trail by less than 3. If the opposing team leads by more than 2, Hashimoto, Sagikhara, Egusa, and Nohmi.

I would disagree with you that everyone has prejudices against certain players - most Tigers fans I know value all the players. Whilst I may think Hiyama is fading, I do not feel the urge to disparage him as a player, and I recognise his skill and ability. Your posts, though, indicate an urge to disparage players and this devalues your opinions. I have seen too much of this among western supporters of various sports. It is not a matter of humour but rather an unpleasant aspect of some fans.

I am afraid your arguments tend to use facts selectively (which is actually a common approach in debate). They do not look at the whole picture and consider every aspect of a problem. Once again this is a common approach. However, it does render the argument you are trying to present valueless. If you do present an argument you should try to avoid disparagement and selectivity - then I will listen.

- I am afraid your arguments tend to use facts selectively (which is actually a common approach in debate). They do not look at the whole picture and consider every aspect of a problem. Once again this is a common approach. However, it does render the argument you are trying to present valueless.

Gee, Christopher, try to lighten up, will you? This is hardly the Oxford Union. You may be the world's most skilled debater, but please spare a thought for those of us who are less than perfect at expressing ourselves.

- They do not look at the whole picture and consider every aspect of a problem. Once again this is a common approach.

Christopher, I don't think you realize it, but you continue to put people down. By "[t]his is a common approach," you mean most people don't meet your stringent requirements. What do you do for fun man? Please lighten up and enjoy discussing baseball.

Had a great time at Muscat Stadium tonight and enjoyed seeing the "fading" Hiyama smack in the winning runs! Sorry couldnt resist!

- I have seen too much of this among western supporters of various sports ...

Oh come on! Will please find it in your heart to forgive us! I just don't get where this anger comes from?

- Oh come on! Will please find it in your heart to forgive us! I just don't get where this anger comes from?

No anger - this is just an emotionless observation.

Tigers Baka - You wanted to know why I considered your opinion not worth considering. My point is that discussing baseball is all very well - disparaging players on flimsy grounds is not. I was delighted Hiyama hit the winning runs as I want to see him do well (I hope he got the hero interview), and didn't Kataoka have a good game? What about Fukuhara - any thoughts on why he almost blew the match?

Mijow - never been there - what was your point? Let's just try to show respect and understanding to all Tigers' players. An appreciation that they have a difficult job with a lot of pressure, but that they are all trying their hardest. Discussion and critisism of mistakes and performances, yes, but no disparagement and ill informed comments.

- Let's just try to show respect and understanding to all Tigers' players. An appreciation that they have a difficult job with a lot of pressure, but that they are all trying their hardest.

Excellent Christopher - that's been my approach since I joined this forum. I'm glad to see you're finally coming around.

For those who responded, thank you. To everyone else, I'd like to ask one more time who you would start in the Nihon Series (assuming it went the full seven games). And guys let's try to do this one nicely, huh? Here goes my thoughts:

1. Shimo
2. Andoh (if the current situation is resolved)
3. Igawa (I still think he's got it somewhere)
4. Fukuhara

Repeat - alternately a three man rotation, with Fukuhara providing an extra arm out of the bullpen. I'm not trying to "disaparage" anyone, but I have not been impressed by Egusa this year. You Guys?

My lineup if Tigers make the Japan Series:

1. Shimoyanagi
2. Andoh
3. Igawa
4. Nohmi
5. Sugiyama
6. Shimoyanagi
7. Andoh

All this depends on whether Andoh is available. If not I would operate a 4 pitcher rotation. No place for Fukuhara I am afraid - currently he is too unreliable. Main relief JFK with Egusa and Sajikihara as backups.

We made a sweep against Hiroshima. Hmmm, did we? Or they gave us the sweep? Except the 2nd game of the 3 game series, they gave us the sweep!

It's hard to believe why Fukuhara was left to pitch till 1 run debit. As I expected Nohmi was the starter instead of Cubillan, he did very well indeed.

Sugiyama lately has been throwing a lot of fat pitches and getting behind the count (like Fukuhara). It's not a good sign for title series.

I've got another doubt. In the last match, Kanemoto made a double play which was actually a one bound ball. The umpires ruled it as out! And that resulted in a double play! What actions can be taken for such mistakes by umpires?

Unlucky Hiroshima, and I was surprised Hiroshima did not even appeal against those things.

- I've got another doubt. In the last match, Kanemoto made a double play which was actually a one bound ball.

Yes, and Kanemoto knew it, too. But over the course of a season these things tend to even out. There have been many incidents in which the Tigers have come off second best.

For me, the real concern about the umpiring is the seemingly arbitrary strike zone. That has far more impact on the result of games than the odd trapped ball.

- [...] arbitrary strike zone.

Hey, whatever happened to the move a few seasons ago to implement an NPB-wide strike zone that more accurately resembled that described in the rule book?

[Italically berserk problem post fixed on Sep 29, 2005 8:08 AM JST]

- Hey, whatever happened to the move a few seasons ago to implement an NPB-wide strike zone that more accurately resembled that described in the rule book?

Maybe the umps think they're following the rules.

Anyway the problem, in my view, is the lack of consistency. Any player can adjust to a wider or narrower strike zone. They just need to know what it is. What they can't stomach is a zone that's inconsistently applied.

Wow. I stumbled into this post a little late - I tend not to hang around groups of Hanshin fans if I can at all help it. However I had to respond to some of Christopher's comments.

Surely if a supporter pays good money to see a game (of any team sport) they have every right to complain, disparage, heckle whatever they like - as long as it's not totally unfounded. And just because someone disparages (you seem to like that word) a player, that devalues their opinion? Wow. I'm glad that you are a Hanshin fan and thus won't be seen in the right field stands at Jingu.

There's a fair bit of heckling from a lot of the Yakult regulars toward underperforming players. After all, a lot of these guys spend almost every evening of the season watching their team, and spend a heck of a lot of money to do so. If so-and-so player who's earning god knows how much money a year isn't pulling his weight, surely they have every right to disparage him? But following your logic, if they complain about that player their opinion doesn't count? Their arguement is "valueless"?

Lighten up a bit will you? You're making the discussion of sports (which after all is one of life's pleasures) seem like discussing the stock market.

Complain I have no problem with but to disparage - no.

Hanshin fans complain and barrack their heroes remorselesly at games, but recognise that all contribute. They also recognise their contributions, each and every one, and will not write off a player just because he is not performing so well at the time. It is not a case of lightening up, but appreciating that everyone contributes in their own way.

Mmmm. Christopher, just let me quote some of your own words from past threads:

- I am afraid I have no faith in Okada's management or judgement, and this season the results seem to bear this out. He is far too rigid and reactive as a manager...

...The Tigers are missing match winners to turn tight games, and it seems that Okada does not have any understanding of this aspect of the game." -November 16, 2004 [Link]

- Igawa is underperforming on a team that has started well. His two matches do not suggest effort on his part whereas everyone else on the side seems to be trying. He didn't start well last year either, but I seem to remember him winning his first match at least. Stuck up may well be a good appraisal of him...

...given that the Tigers have a good chance at the pennant this year, his attitude is worrying." -April 10, 2005 [Link]

Just a couple of comments shamelessly taken out of context, but they certainly sound disparaging to me (disparage = express a negative opinion of).

I want to add my two cents on the whole thread, as this topic has gotten a little out of hand.

One, fans do have a right to express their opinions. But nobody can expect their team to be perfect. That's the problem with us some fans these days - they want to jump into a panic mode immediately after a loss or two losses in a row.

Two, there's been a lot of criticism on manager Okada in the past threads, but he must have done something right on his way to leading the Tigers to the pennant. Granted, they have the best collection of players in the league, but he has them playing winning baseball. I would have no complaints if my team were playing very well like they have been.

OK. This has gone on long enough. Christopher has discounted the opinions of others, and others have pointed out that he's as guilty of those crimes he's accused others of. We're not getting anywhere with this.

The Tigers have now won the Pennant. Let's celebrate.