Ichiro Set to Break 84 Year Old Record

After having a 5/5 night against the Angels, the rumors are out in plenty. The fans in Seattle hope he breaks the record at home against Texas in the season ending series.

There are talks of him heading to sunny California, either with the Giants or Dodgers. Trade names are not mentioned, however, some pitching prospects are considered from both teams. The value of Ichiro to Seattle is fading. Although attendance is steady, the team in 2004 has become a no-name franchise.

Don't jump the gun yet. Ichiro is the Mariners' most valuable player on and off the field. His offense and defense speak for themselves.

Ichiro is the Mariner's only superstar with the retirement or movement of fan favorites such as Edgar Martinez, Jay Buhner, Alex Rodrigues, Ken Griffey Jr., and Randy Johnson.

Even during the off-season Japanese and other fans stand in front of Ichiro's picture outside of Safeco Filed. People all over the Pacific Northwest and Japan wear Ichiro jerseys, shirts, and caps.

- There are talks of him heading to sunny California, either with the Giants or Dodgers. Trade names are not mentioned, however, some pitching prospects are considered from both teams. The value of Ichiro to Seattle is fading. Although attendance is steady, the team in 2004 has become a no-name franchise.

Please, Ichiro won't be traded from Seattle regardless of how terrible they play. The front office in Seattle won't trade Ichiro regardless of San Francisco offering Barry Bonds.

Ichiro is the Seattle Mariners, with Edgar Martinez retiring after this year, Bret Boone wasn't the same this year. Plus, the Giants and Dodgers both don't have anything the Mariners would want for Ichiro. The fact remains, Ichiro is going nowhere.

- The value of Ichiro to Seattle is fading. [...] the team in 2004 has become a no-name franchise.

Are you kidding me? The only thing that is keeping the fans in the ballpark in Seattle is Ichiro. Nobody wants to watch the third worst team in the Majors, but they all want to watch the magic of Ichiro. He is the only person the Mariners will not trade unless someone offers something extremely ridiculous for him.

So you're saying that he will be a Mariner forever? The value of a player is based on attendance and selling ads. They can sell all the jerseys they want, but sales are shared with all teams. How many more jerseys can be sold in the Pacific Northwest?

He is a great hitter, and plays great defense. No doubt, with or without him, Seattle is not a championship team or contender.

By the way, I was in Las Vegas for my annual poker play at the Flamingo Hotel. In the north lobby tour area there is a Yokamma Gift Store (a lot of Japanese who tour Las Vegas stay at the Flamingo). The two big baseball selling items are jerseys for Kazuo of the Mets and Hideki of the Yanks. The woman clerk told me she reorders at least three times a year, and Ichiro jerseys were not a big seller.

What I'm saying is that we shouldn't react to every rumor of impending trade that comes along. Every player can be moved at any time.

- So you're saying that he will be a Mariner forever?

Ichiro will be a Mariner until he retires or if he goes back to Japan. Ichiro will always be a Seattle Mariner.

- He is a great hitter, and plays great defense. No doubt, with or without him, Seattle is not a championship team or contender.

That's the point, they're not going to trade Ichiro, because they would be less of a team without him. Regardless of if they offered Barry Bonds, or top prospects. Ichiro is more valuable than anyone the Mariners could get for him.

John Brooks,

Out of curiosity where are you located? I'm in the Seattle area.

I live outside Baltimore, MD.

Seattle's attendance is about 4 or 5 best in the American League. The Angels draw just a little bit more than Seattle within their division. Before Ichiro's arrival, the team was within the top 6 in attendance. Any Seattle fan will tell you about the long list of former stars who played there.

Any ball player can get the hook. Look at all the other great hitters in MLB. What did they contribute to make a World Series team? Just for skill, you would trade a player, but now it's also team value agaist the cap. The Yankees add dollars and pay adjustments, but they sell at home and on the road.

Ichiro belongs on a team of heavy number 2, 3, and 4 hitters.

Seattle probably will set some records this year. Most losses by a team who has a 92% attendance capacity per game. The most minor league players used this season. And a player who will break a MLB record for most hits, as well as two other records: the least RBIs in a season for a player with the highest batting average and the most times on base without scoring.

You think fans want this? I know that Seattle is a good baseball city, but if the Seahawks are successful this year, advertising dollars will be spend on them. I think that's another reason why he will be traded.

- Seattle's attendance is about 4 or 5 best in the American League. The Angels draw just a little bit more than Seattle within their division. Before Ichiro's arrival, the team was within the top 6 in attendance. Any Seattle fan will tell you about the long list of former stars who played there.

Please, don't base your information on assumptions you can't prove. Please, the Mariners after Ichiro's arrival are still attracting fans. If the Mariners go out and get a couple of good free agents, they'll be back to contending.

- Ichiro belongs on a team of heavy number 2, 3, and 4 hitters.

Ichiro belongs in Seattle, he's not getting traded.

- Seattle probably will set some records this year. Most losses by a team who has a 92% attendance capacity per game. The most minor league players used this season.

The Mariners aren't going to trade Ichiro because of this, Ichiro will be here until he retires.

- You think fans want this? I know that Seattle is a good baseball city, but if the Seahawks are successful this year, advertising dollars will be spend on them. I think that's another reason why he will be traded.

The Mariners aren't going to trade Ichiro because Seattle spends advertising dollars on the Seahawks.

The point is not the amount of revenue he can generate in Seattle area. The point is that he has the market potential in Japan which is huge. Both Yankees and Seattle will never let Ichiro and Matsui go.

As incredible as Ichiro's hitting has been this year, I must remind everybody of the fact that George Sisler achieved the record in a 154 game season. Of course if he has a couple of back to back 5 for 5 games against Texas this weekend like he did against my Angels the other night he could achieve the record within 154 games.

I don't see Seattle letting Ichiro go. The Mariners were really hit hard by injuries this season, and with a couple of acquisitions in the off-season, they should be back contending next season. Ichiro is, and will continue to be, a big draw for the Seattle team, and I don't think he wants to go anyplace else anyway.

I really believe Ichiro has a shot at hitting .400 some season before his career is through. And because he is a leadoff hitter and gets more at bats, he has a legitimate shot at breaking DiMaggio's consecutive hit streak as well. I was pulling for him when he had that 21-game streak earlier in the season and was at the game against the Angels when it was broken.

One last thing - I don't buy for one second the fact that Americans don't want him breaking Sisler's record because he is a foreigner. The attempt at the record has been good for baseball fans in both Japan and North America.

Allen Bacon
Fullerton, CA, USA
Home of the National Champion Cal State Fullerton Titans

- As incredible as Ichiro's hitting has been this year, I must remind everybody of the fact that George Sisler achieved the record in a 154 game season.

Very true, but you should also remind everyone that Sisler set his record before MLB was intergraded.

Sisler was a great hitter whose career was cut short due to a degenerative optic nerve condition when he turned 30. That probably prevented him from achieving greater renown.

His record has stood for many years, after integration, I might add. The fact that he played 154 games really has no relevance in the record book. That is, there will be no asterisk when Ichiro-san hopefully sets a new record. No doubt he will be pitched to and he will get a fair shot. He is one of baseball's greatest hitters.

And 1908-san, the NPB home run record has stood after "integration" of NPB with foreigners. The difference is that the foreigners don't get pitched to when they come close. Imagine the outrage in Japan (and in the U.S.) if MLB pitchers chose to pitch around Ichiro-san to preserve Sisler's record.

Sometimes it is best to leave some things unsaid - and sometimes not when provoked.

And 1908-san, the NPB home run record has stood after "integration" of NPB with foreigners. The difference is that the foreigners don't get pitched to when they come close. Imagine the outrage in Japan (and in the U.S.) if MLB pitchers chose to pitch around Ichiro-san to preserve Sisler's record.

Sometimes it is best to leave some things unsaid - and sometimes not when provoked.

Nice non sequitur.

Please don't start the Roger Maris argument again.

- Please don't start the Roger Maris argument again.

It looks as if the commentators in the U.S. already have. Anybody read Joe Morgan's comments today at espn.com? I quote:

"While Ichiro's single season hits accomplishment is impressive, we should never push accomplishments from the past aside - because the season has more games today.

"There should be two records, one for the 162-game season and one for the 154-game season. I believe that baseball ought to have two record books for all records, and both sets of records should be held in high esteem."

What utter rubbish! I can't believe that this kind of spin is getting put on such a remarkable feat mere hours after he accomplished it! Why can't people just give the man his due?

Someone on this board wisely commented that Sisler's mark was set in an era where baseball was segregated. Maybe someone ought to remind Mr. Morgan of this fact before he starts spouting off more ill-timed and insensitive comments like this.

Someone, needs to remind Joe Morgan of a lot of things. Critictizing, Ichiro Suzuki because broke the record in more games than Sisler is petty. First of all, Ichiro can't control the fact he played in more games. And secondly, it's sad for Morgan to go this low, but expected.

A 162-game record is pathetic, Morgan didn't say this when Bonds broke McGwire's HR record, or even when McGwire broke Maris' record. Someone, needs to remind Morgan not to open his foot and insert mouth [sic]. Like Sisler's son, "records are meant to be broken," obviously Morgan doesn't feel this way this time around, when he had no problem with McGwire's or Bonds' home run records.

And also Joe Morgan is black. He should know better. Hank and Willie might have had more hits/home runs if they weren't playing in the Negro Leagues.

Well, Willie Mays came up to the MLB at the ripe old age of 20. I didn't bother checking on Aaron because it's the same deal. MLB was integrated when they were ready, so your arguement is pretty weak. I suggest you get your facts straight before spouting your thinly veiled self righteousness.

Congrats to Ichiro. I don't agree with Joe Morgan's comment, but I think his view is in the minority. There is no quibbling about other records of the 154/162 vein. I am glad that Ichiro can today play in an environment where he can be allowed an honest shot at breaking an old record. I hope others who play elsewhere will have the same opportunity.

I also wanted to point out that Rob Neyer has a column at espn.com entitled "Ichiro No Sisler," although I haven't been able to read it yet. I seem to be having trouble loading the page here at home. If anyone would care to quote, reprint and/or comment on that article here, I would be much obliged.

But, I mean, what the h*** is going on here? Ichiro no Sisler? What's that supposed to mean? Did Rob Neyer ever see George Sisler play? Was he a bat boy for the Browns in a previous life? Why can't these people just acknowledge greatness when it hits them in the face and be proud to have witnessed such a special moment in baseball history?

Well, Rob Reyer is actually a very good writer. ESPN made him write for the subscription-only section now, so I can't read the article either. Although I have no problem with people saying Sisler's 257 season was better than Ichiro's - I mean, the man hit over .400! However, it is an argument that's missing the point. Ichiro is now the single season hit king, period. Whether his season is better or worse than anybody else's is irrelevant.

The discussion should be centered on Ichiro-san's new record for most hits in a season. Period. Whether it was done in 162 games or 154 is irrelevant because all other records recently broken are not recorded with that caveat.

Whether Sisler or Ichiro is a better overall player is another discussion and should not take away from Ichiro's achievement. They were different types of players in different eras. Both were/are great in their own ways.

Aside from the joy of Ichiro's difficult achievement, another positive note from this has been new attention given to Sisler's achievements and renown as a player. Prior to Ichiro's march on the record, Sisler was never mentioned in the same breath as Ruth, Wagner, Cobb, Gehrig, or other immortals of his era. Sisler hit over .400 twice! He held the season home run record of 57 until Ruth broke it (or possibly hit 57 the year Ruth hit 60). He hit for average and power and was a great defensive player.

As I posted previously, a degenerative optic nerve disease effected his play after age 30, but he still put up great numbers. On top of this, historians write that Sisler was an intelligent, educated, thoughtful gentleman, as compared to the racist Cobb and excessive Ruth.

I salute Ichiro-san's great accomplishment. It's also gratifying to see Sisler get the respect and appreciation he deserves even while his record was broken.

- He held the season home run record of 57 until Ruth broke it (or possibly hit 57 the year Ruth hit 60).

Sisler never hit any more than 19 home runs. Ruth broke his own home run record of 29 HR in 1920 with 54 HR, then hit 59 HR in 1921, and 60 HR in 1927. [Link - Baseball Reference, Babe Ruth Profile]

I stand corrected, although I thought I read that in an article. Must be old age.

Sisler hit with a lot more power than Ichiro did. Sisler's 1920 had him at a 181 OPS+., or 81% above the league's onbase-plus-slugging averages.

I can't say for sure what Ichiro's is, but it's probably below 150+. Ichiro's defense and baserunning makes up a little bit of the ground between the two, but not as much as you'd think because (a) Sisler was no mug defensively or on the bases and (b) Ichiro plays right field, which knocks up the average offensive expectation quite a bit for his position. If he was a good center fielder - and I think he has the ability to be - he'd narrow the gap.

Sisler's record setting year was altogether probably a better one. Ichiro just doesn't hit for enough power to have one of the all-time great years like Sisler did, although he's such a good singles hitter that he's among the most valuable players in the American League anyway.

I don't think anyone in the US is trying to keep Ichiro from breaking Sisler's record because of his ethnicity.

The complaints about Ichiro are mainly that in this day and age in MLB, singles hitters aren't highly regarded. Many people feel that Ichiro sacrifices power at the expense of just trying to get a single. And that he doesn't walk enough.

George Sisler also is not nearly as legendary a figure as Babe Ruth, so no one gets too worked up over him losing a record.

Sisler's team, the St. Louis Browns, became the Baltimore Orioles. And the present day Orioles rarely acknowledge that part of their past.

I don't see anyone who doesn't want Ichiro to break the record, because there is no one that doesn't want him to break the record.

- Sisler's team, the St. Louis Browns, became the Baltimore Orioles. And the present day Orioles rarely acknowledge that part of their past.

Being a die-hard Orioles fan, I think I can comment on this. The Orioles didn't want to be associated with the Browns. George Sisler has his place in history, no one is denying that, but he wasn't an Oriole, and they should be a part of our history.

I was in attendance for tonight's Oakland vs. Seattle game. Ichiro got two hits, including a leadoff double that set the tone for a Mariners' win. He would have had three hits, but pitcher Tim Hudson got his glove on a bullett back through the middle, deflecting the ball to shortstop Bobby Crosby, who threw Ichiro out at first.

Ichiro now needs three hits to tie the record and four to break it. I'll be at tomorrow's game as well, hoping to see history being made!

He will no doubt break the 257 mark. The question is, how many times will he then break his own record in the years to come?

He probably won't break his own record. He'd be the first to tell you he's having as good a year as he will ever have.

Barry Bonds had an interesting article on MLB.com today that said if Ichiro was American (i.e. came into MLB at 20-22, not 30) that he might have been able to challenge Rose.

If Ichiro's next goal is to hit .400, he has to break his own hit record to accomplish the feat. He has to hit 280 hits in a 700 AB season!! Now that is incredible. Do you think he can do it?

Short of someone hitting .500 for the season in June, I won't believe .400 is possible unless someone is hitting at least .390 in September. Ichiro didn't hit .400 in NPB in a shorter season (the shorter the season, the easier it is to achieve a percentage stat like average) - why should we expect he'll do better in the majors?

Jim Albright

- Ichiro didn't hit .400 in NPB in a shorter season (the shorter the season, the easier it is to achieve a percentage stat like average) - why should we expect he'll do better in the majors?

I think he'd have a much better shot at .400 if he were playing in a hitters park instead of Safeco Field. I'm sure you're familiar with Baseball Prospectus, Jim. They have Ichiro's EQBA in 2001 at .381.

Yeah, I know about the Prospectus. Even if he hit .381, that is 14 or 15 hits shy of .400 - and it's hard to make that up. George Brett couldn't do it. Also, Ichiro is in his 30's, which generally means he's not going to get much better, especially in average.

Look, I think Ichiro is a nice talent, but .400 in today's game is very difficult. Further, I don't think Safeco is a bandbox, which is the main way a park would affect Ichiro (especially in his main point of value of average) by leaving less ground for fielders to cover.

Jim Albright

- Even if he hit .381, that is 14 or 15 hits shy of .400 - and it's hard to make that up.

.381 is what his .350 average in 2001 was equivalent to after being adjusted. I'm anxious to see what his .372 average this year looks like after the Prospectus folks adjust it. I have a feeling it will be really close to .400. And that's my point.

Well, he wouldn't need 280 hits if he'd just take a walk now and then. Fewer the at-bats, better chance to hit .400.

I think Barry will do it before Ichiro.

Ichiro Suzuki is by far the best natural ball player who's ever played. Barry Bonds is the best juiced ball player who's ever played. There is no way you can get Ichiro out. There is no "Meaning of Ichiro." This guy is still a witch, a freak, or an alien. If Ichiro played in the era when George Sisler was playing, Ichiro would have hit 300 knocks.

Ichiro is pure artistry and finesse. I look at Ichiro sort of like Greg Maddux as a pitcher who has pin-point location, changes speeds, and can get anyone out without necessarily being over-powering.

I would pay huge bones just to see Ichiro vs. Maddux, rather than Bonds vs. "The Big Rat" Randy Johnson any day.

Ichiro = Freak!

Let's not get carried away now with "irrational exuberance."

First, on Barry Bonds, I don't care how much steriod loaded "supplements" he was taking. That doesn't help you with your timing, your pitch recognition, and your ability to bring your hands to the ball with the same kind of efficiency that Bonds does. All steriods do is give you greater strength and perhaps the ability to recuperate from muscular stress quicker. If strength were all it took to succeed in MLB, Steve Balboni and Billy Ashley would have been the second coming of Babe Ruth and Hank Greenberg.

Nobody I have ever seen in 40 years of watching baseball is on so many pitches as Bonds is. He is from Mars right now. On a personal level, I hate Bonds with a passion, but to use steroids as an excuse to denigrate him ignores what he does from a pure baseball standpoint. As a lifeling Dodgers fan, you have no idea how much it makes me gag to say this, but MLB is Barry Bonds' world and you are only living in it.

On Ichiro, if Morgan wants to determnine records by length of season, then how about by pre-African-American and post African-American eras? The talent pool was diluted in pre-WWII MLB because blacks weren't allowed to play in it. Sisler was an undeniably great hitter, but he didn't have to travel like they do in MLB now (especially Seattle, which racks up the most miles of any team), and the present talent level is better because MLB recruits from everywhere on the planet now, not just Caucasian America like it did during Sisler's era.

I mean, you think you had as many people back in the 1930's who can throw 95mph as you have now? Of course not. The outfielders are faster, the coaching better and the scouting more computerized than it was even 20 years ago. You also have to take into account that despite this record being in existence for decades, nobody even got close until Darin Erstad had 240 hits a few seasons ago.

Now to close on this point: Sisler scouted Jackie Robinson and put his stamp of approval on Rickey's plan to integrate MLB via Jackie. I believe that George would find the nonsense coming from those who are pooh-poohing Ichiro's accomplishment rather distastful. The Sisler family presented Ichiro with a cap signed by George. I would call it George tipping his hat to the Japan-born Suzuki. And that is what we all should be doing.

- I mean, you think you had as many people back in the 1930's who can throw 95mph as you have now? Of course not.

This is not well-proven enough to be true.

There's a lot more to pitching than just trying to throw hard. It's like hitting, it's not a muscle thing. It's mechanics, limberness, et al. Curt Schilling is a big fat guy - look at his forearms, he's not really muscular at all - and throws 95 at 40. Randy Johnson is a stick. So we know that it's not a muscle thing.

The only real "proof" pitchers throw harder now is radar gun readings. Well, radar technology produces a more accurate record now than even 10 years ago, and MLB has a vested interest in pushing up radar readings as high as they can since that promotes interest in the game. Plus, there's the whole fast gun/slow gun thing.

And I don't really think pitching coaches have much of an idea what they're doing with mechanics at all. They're actually teaching the least efficient type right now anyway.

-- I mean, you think you had as many people back in the 1930's who can throw 95mph as you have now? Of course not.

- This is not well-proven enough to be true.

We do know that track athletes have gotten progressively faster since the 1930s. In fact, timed events across the Olympic games have gotten faster and faster over time, and there are many other examples of similar improvements in athletics. I don't think it's much of leap to make at all. But if the only way to "prove" it to you is to show you a radar gun reading from 1932, well, then you're right.

Sprinting has what to do with pitching?

All sprinters, more or less, look the same.

The people who can throw 95 mph vary widely. There are short guys (Pedro), tall guys (Randy Johnson), fat guys (Curt Schilling, Livan Hernandez), and thin guys (well, Randy Johnson again). It's a complicated act to pitch a ball, and no matter what physical condition you are in, 99% of humanity cannot throw 95 mph. Granted, 99% of humanity can't run the 100 in 11 seconds either, but if you took a 14 year old and put him on a sprinter's program, he probably could get pretty close to that. You can take the most athletic kid you can possibly find, and he might not be able to break a pane of glass throwing a baseball.

Primitive attempts to record the speed of a thrown baseball have Bob Feller throwing 98 mph off a flat mound in 1942. That's as hard as the hardest pitchers throw today, and I would wager a large sum of money that the gun used to record his speed is slower than even the "slow" guns today.

- Sprinting has what to do with pitching?

Althletic performace has improved over the past century thanks to advances in training technigues, nutrition, medicine, etc. I used the track analogy (it's not just sprinting by the way, and I think your any-14-year-old-put-on-a-sprinter's-program claim is bunk) to illustrate that.

Pitching is a complicated act, but that doesn't mean it hasn't benefited from the aforesaid advances overall. And that's what I'm talking about, the overall quality of pitching versus throwing out a few names to prove my point.

Sisler will probably be forgotten again now that Ichiro setting the hit record is a distant memory, but he is arguably the best first baseman of all time. [Sisler Profile - Club Ichiro]

Were it not for Sisler's eye condition, Ichiro might still be trying for the record!

- Sisler will probably be forgotten again now that Ichiro setting the hit record is a distant memory

I would disagree, saying it has brought a revival of Sisler's accomplishments as a player.

- but he is arguably the best first baseman of all time.

I would say he's up there with Lou Gehrig and Jimmie Foxx. He's one of the better all-time first basemen, though I think he's behind both Gehrig and Foxx by a little.