Matsui vs. Jeter?

Jeter is not a good defensive shortstop, period.

After the A-Rod trade to the Yankees, they showed the career defensive stats, and Jeter was worse than A-Rod in every category. Don't get me wrong, I think Jeter is a good player, but I think his looks got him more fame, and with Joe Torre being an all-star manager since they've won the AL so many times the previous years, players who actually deserve to go to the all-star game, like Tejada, get snubbed.

Kaz will not hit home runs like crazy like Big Mac. He's like Ichiro, but with a little more power. I expect him to hit 20-25 home runs.

Mark McGwire? Where did that come from?

And if Hideki Matsui, the top home run hitter in Japan, only hit 16 last year, what makes you think Kazuo is gonna hit 20-25? I stick to my prediction for him. He'll hit about .280 avg., 9 home runs, 40 RBI, 25 stolen bases. 2004 will be a feeling out process for him.

Jeter is not a good defensive shortstop. Matsui is far superior.

Jeter is a good clutch performer, although playing for New York, he gets more clutch opportunities than any other team.

I think Matsui will do well in the majors. He will be better than Jeter on defense. Matsui probably will be an all-star in the majors. Though he won't hit anywhere near as many home runs as Mark McGwire. Count on a better average, though.

Find out more about Hideki and the Yankees opening in Japan at YankeesGM.com [a Yankees' fan forum].

Why do you think Jeter is not a good defensive shortstop? People who understand baseball know that generally a player with less range gets to fewer balls and thus makes fewer errors. Although Matsui is very good, remember, he played on turf in 4 out of the 4 stadiums he played in Japan. He should be OK on grass, but we'll see.

As for McGwire, "where did that come from?" is right. He'll hit .275, 15, 55 and 25-30 SB.

Aw come on now. Jeter is very good, but defense is not his strongest suit. As far as Kaz Matsui, get over the bull about turf vs. grass. It will not be a problem becuse he has good hands and good instincts.

He does have 2 stitches in his finger, though, and is out for a weak. I like the fact that he stood up and said he took his eye off the ball, instead of a lame excuse like bad grass. He impressed many with his forthrightness.

Is this the start of the bad luck of playing for the Mets? One paper asked "How do you say - Use your glove - in Japanese?"

What's with all the Jeter haters? I don't see where anyone can statistically say that Jeter isn't a good defensive shortstop! Since 1997 comparing to the top 5 (Jeter, Nomar, A-Rod, Tejada, and Vizquel), Jeter has a .975 fielding % which is 3rd to Vizquel and A-Rod, but very close to the Rod's .979%. He led the position in 1999 and was 2nd in 1998 and '97, 4th in 2000, 3rd in '01 and '02, and 5th last year. Now fith one time in seven years doesn't make him poor! At worst he's the 3rd best in MLB over the past 7 years. Not one shortstop in the N.L. has the overall ability of these 5 super-shorts, and Vizquel is questionable offensively for this group.

Matsui has a chance to be in this group, but will have to adjust to the pitching of 15 more teams on a regular basis. He won't embarass himself, but he's got his work cut out for him. As long as he stays within himself he'll adjust at a good pace. There are a lot of quality fielding SS's in MLB, but a very rare few are this talented.

Does anyone agree?

Is there anyone who thinks it's not easier to field a ground ball on turf than grass? And how do you know he has good hands?

How about 8 years+ of defensive excellence in NPB.

How do you know the earth isn't flat?

8 years of defensive excellence. Are you using the same equations on Matsui as ESPN is using on Matsui?

I know the Earth is not flat because when I fly from the USA to Japan I can see it is not flat. Please don't get so defensive. I just wonder how you personally know he has good hands? Are you a scout or player?

Hehe. First, unless you are flying in the Concorde, which is no longer flying, or an astronaut, which may be your next claim, you cannot see the curvature of the earth. Since you agree the earth isn't flat, you don't personally know this, but must be relying on credible second or third party evidence or reports, as I do on Matsui-san.

It's not polite in Japan to be so confrontational, but you know that because you spend so much time flying to Japan. Maybe we'll be on the same flight one day. You're not Bill Singer are you?

I am not Bill Singer, but I beleive you can see a slight curve to the earth from an airplane.

I have seen Matsui play personally, and have spoken to Japanese scouts who agree with my own opinion that he is an above average fielder with excellent range and an excellent arm.

Please don't feel bad that you get all of your information from sources other than yourself. That is why we have so many experts out there who never played above little league who think they have knowledge of the game. It always makes me smile to hear people regurgitating Gammons and Jim Rome and passing it on as their own opinions.

Sayonara.

You were wrong about Matsui's defense.

According to statistics, Jeter is one of the worst shortstops in the league. If you go here (ESPN stats page), you will see that Jeter has one of the lowest Range Factor, Zone Rating, and Fielding Percentage. I had no idea he was that bad.

I saw that sight and still I think that one year doesn't taint his career. It also shows that Almonte, who replaced Jeter when he was injured, has more range, but I wouldn't make that trade. If Jeter was a liability on the field he wouldn't be in as many fielding highlight clips.

I don't hate Jeter. He is a great player. However, his defense is average. Many great players are just adequate in defense. Nagashima was a great showman and his defense looks spectacular, but in reality, he wasn't the best defensively.

Jeter is an absolutely awful shortstop. The stats don't lie. The reason ESPN has so many highlights of him is because a lot of media types have a crush on Jeter, Tim Macarthur is absolutely in love with him.

It is mysticism and reputation that keeps Jeter at shortstop and A-Rod at third. A huge mistake for the Yankees, but hey, it's their loss.

Oh! And how many rings did A-Rod bring to New York? Sounds to me like more than just the media types have an A-Rod crush.

How can Alex win a championship when his team sucks? Alex is better than Jeter both offensively and defensively. This is undebatable.

And that's beside the point. What does this have to do with Jeter's defense? Have you ever really seen him play? His first step is horrible. He has no range. Ya, fielding stats aren't perfect. But it's gotta mean something when your last or next to last in every category.

[Admin: This thread is wondering way off topic. Can we bring it back to include a comparison with Matsui?]

A-Rod would have won 5 rings if he played for New York instead of Jeter. New York won because they had a great team with Mo Rivera, Bernie, O'Neill, Pettitte, El Duque, Jeter, and others like Leyritz. Jeter didn't carry the team by himself.

Okay guys, I'm not backing down but your point is clear. Now can I ask this? If you're a Major league G.M. with a need for shortstop and A-rod is taken, would you take A)Matsui B)Jeter or C)Nomar and D)Tejada? And why?

There is no comparison to Matsui vs. Jeter, it's Matsui who is unproven at the MLB level. Yet he has a great track record in Japan (no doubt)! I just don't think there's any contest - it's more the "luck of the draw."

I would get Jeter, who is charismas and a real leader. He makes team mates better with his charming smile, even with his poor performance. You just look at Big Matsui when he is faned out but his team wins!

- If you're a Major league G.M. with a need for shortstop and A-rod is taken, would you take A)Matsui B)Jeter or C)Nomar and D)Tejada? And why?

Assuming the costs are the same, I take Garciaparra. If real life costs are reflected, I take Matsui. In any case, I take Jeter last out of that group.

That's not to say that Jeter is a bad player. Far from it. He's just not a top shortstop. He brings value to his team because he can play shortstop and hit, but he is neither the best hitting shortstop nor the best fielding shortstop, and Garciaparra and Tejada do both better. And I would hazard that Matsui could put up equivalent or near equivalent offensive numbers to Jeter with much superior defense.

Regarding Jeter's defense. Defensive stats tend to underrate him, they're not quite granular enough for the whole picture. Jeter has a very strong arm, and goes back on flys to shallow left- and centerfield as good or better than anyone. But he has slow reactions and a bad first step, greatly decreasing his range.

Defensive stats that utilize play-by-play data like Ultimate Zone Rating (IMO, the best single defensive stat out there) show that Jeter just doesn't get to as many of the balls hit into his area as league average shortstops do. Last year was especially bad, no doubt thanks to lingering effects/fear from his shoulder injury. Last year aside, Jeter is an average defender at best.

That doesn't mean Jeter isn't a great player. His offense is among the top in the league for his position, and he is probably the best base runner in the game right now. His offense, right now, more than makes up for his deficiencies in the field. All the same, though, it's getting close to be the time when the Yankees will have to get a real third baseman, move Rodriguez to short, and put Jeter into the outfield where his excellent speed and fly ball tracking skills can be put to good use. There's a good chance that Jeter may be a better all-around outfielder than he is an all-around shortstop!

Well, if they were all in the market I'd take them in this order:

1. Tejada - power hitter, best of the four, average fielder
2. Nomar - great hitter but Fenway Park helps his stats, average fielder
3. Jeter - really good hitter, terrible defense
4. Matsui - pretty good hitter, great defense

It depends on what you want though. Do you need a middle of the order hitter? Than Tejada is your best bet. He hit in bad luck last year and still put up some pretty good stats. Tejada gets knocked for his defense, but in reality, he's just about as good as Nomar.

Speaking of which, unless I'm the Red Sox, I wouldn't sign Nomar. His home/road splits are scary, and he would come with the highest price tag. He doesn't get on-base as much as Jeter, doesn't hit for power like Tejada, and he doesn't have Matsui's defense. Still a great player - at Fenway Park that is.

If you need a top of the order hitter, you take Jeter (who has a career OBP of over .400). If you want to strengthen your defense up the middle you take Matsui (he also costs much less than the other three and will do well with the bat).