Mark Prior on facing Ichiro

- Are Prior's generalizations accurate?

Well, he's talking about facing the national team quite a number of years ago. His generalizations may have merrit there. But no generalizations really fit Ichiro other than that he can hit pretty much anything. Sure, he had a bad weekend. But then, he had a few bad streaks while in Japan as well.

- Is Ichiro's approach at the plate the norm in Japan[?]

No.

- [D]o pitchers throw inside less often in NPB (compared to MLB)?

No, pitchers do throw inside often in Japan. And for some batters more often than others. The Giants' Kiyohara, for instance, seems to get a lot of inside pitches. Like in the Majors, pitchers look for a hitter's weak spot. When they think they've found one, they keep pitching there.

Ichiro also got a large number of brush back pitches while in Japan. Somebody, somewhere decided that that was his weak spot. While it may have worked an at bat or two, Ichiro adjusted and hit the ball inside or out.

Just watch. Some team is going to think that pitching Ichiro inside is the key. And in a key situation Ichiro is going to take that inside pitch down the line and clear the bases.

Prior had a good outing, Ichiro didn't. Prior did the right thing by not letting the Ichiro hype break him from what he normally does. I think that by not trying to find a work around for Ichiro and throwing his usual game that Prior was able to do well. Trying to change oneself to beat a particular batter will more often than not burn the pitcher in question. He played it his way. That's what was key. Not pitching Ichiro inside.

- Are Prior's generalizations accurate?

Well, he's talking about facing the national team quite a number of years ago.

Not to nitpick, but Prior faced the Japanese national team during his freshman year in college, which was 1998.

Pitchers do throw inside often in Japan. And for some batters more often than others. The Giants' Kiyohara, for instance, seems to get a lot of inside pitches. Like in the Majors, pitchers look for a hitter's weak spot. When they think they've found one, they keep pitching there.

That's very interesting. A Zen Way of Baseball suggests the opposite -- "Now in Japanese baseball there is a custom that pitchers do not often throw 'brush back' pitches." -- but I'm not surprised to find out that the game has changed since Oh-san played.

I don't know where you get you info, but Ichiro is a typical Japanese hitter. They all have very simular styles to hitting. They are all for the most part good contact hitters. No, pitchers in Japan don't throw in much. They will instead try to get the hitter to swing at a pitch way outside or chase something in the dirt. I know I played there.

You know you played here? Are you sure? Did your jersey have Guest on the back?

Come on, not every Japanese hitter hits the same and not every Japanese pitcher throws the same. It's time to stop the generalization of Japanese baseball. Have you ever heard of Osamu Higashio? He was the Roger Clemens of Japan. He threw inside all the time and wouldn't let hitters crowd the plate-just ask Dick Davis.

You can tell that a lot of non athletic guys who think they know a lot about the game write on this site. Ichiro is a typical Japanese hitter. He's just prefected it, the rest fall short in his foot steps. And yes I did play there, did you?

And yes I did play there, did you?

I normally don't feed the trolls but I'm curious. What's your name, oh anonymous expert?

Then what is your name??

What is your name then?
Until proven, we won't believe you.
Also, why is that most of the ex-Major League players, managers, and analysts in the US believe Ichiro is unique among any Japanese or Major League players?
You are in the minority man.

Please don't take everyone asking for your name the wrong way. The thing is, we non-athletic types feel better knowing the source of information. Because of the anonymity allowed by posting anonymously (even logged in), any source is questionable. One reason the site resorted to moderation is because one jerk decided to play multiple personalities in attacking people who posted here and players with slanderous and racist comments. Those fans that post here tend to think more than the average fan, and want to know that a source is reliable before believing it.

Personally, I don't think you have to reveal your name to be considered a believable source. You can gain credibility by picking a handle and always write while signed in. (You don't have to fill out the real name and/or e-mail address with anything valid if you never want to be contacted in private by anyone.) By always using the same logged-in pen name, everything you say will be counted for or against your credibility.

The other thing to gain credibility is to better explain what your thinking is, especially if it differs from most. As a computer programmer, it is difficult, but not impossible, to explain some concepts to non-programmers, such a recursion (which I explained to a freshman a few days ago). How can you back up that Ichiro is "typical" to a group of non-athletes? His stance doesn't appear typical to any of us. His speed is atypical. Is his bat speed average?

We non-athletic people need something to measure. Stats are one thing, and they scream that Ichiro is not typical, anywhere. But we all also know that stats do not tell the whole story, and I'm sure that many others are open to a different way of looking at this "problem."

Furthermore, in your own words, "He's just perfected it, the rest fall short in his foot steps." Doesn't this, in itself, say that Ichiro is not typical? If typical players have all perfected the game, then nobody should fall short of anyone else. To logic-minded non-jocks, "perfection" and being ahead of the rest is not typical. We need help in understanding what about Ichiro's game is typical. From an athlete's standpoint, can you explain that?

I can understand why a player (even a former player) would like to remain anonymous on a fan site. Players are in the public eye more than enough, and they don't need somebody stalking them via e-mail and/or for something they said without any supporting evidence (like "Ichiro is typical"). But if you can explain in no uncertain terms why it is that Ichiro is a "typical Japanese hitter," name or not, your credibility will go up. (Well, if your name is Greenwell, maybe you still won't have any credibility.)

Everyone should just forget about this poser who keeps claiming that "he played here." Yeah, he might have played here, but slow-pitch softball doesn't really count if you ask me.

It takes a real man like Will Flynt to come out and give his name while explaining the way Japanese baseball works without doing so in a condescending manner.

This poser is just a gutless wannabe who just enjoys making people think he actually played for one of the 12 teams here in NPB when in reality it's obvious that he just played recreational softball in some god-forsaken league.

Hey Mr. "I played in Japan" Gutless Wonder, before you get too smart for your own good, just remember what Chicago Bulls GM Jerry Krause was once told when he was starting out as a scout for the White Sox. Krause, a "non-athletic" type, had a mentor who was a long-time scout for the White Sox who, like Krause, never played professionally in any sport.

Krause asked this gentleman if a person who never played the game could still be a scout and the mentor replied, "You don't have to be a chicken to smell a rotten egg."

Ichiro is a typical Japanese hitter? Don't make me laugh. You don't have any credibility here on this message board whatsoever. The "non-athletic" types on this board watch and study the game more closely than you obviously so don't even begin with your pompous BS.

Thanks for proving me right guys. [...]

[Comments indented to start a flame war edited by: Admin on Jul 24, 2002 1:40 PM JST. Let' keep it civil, people.]

- Ichiro is a typical Japanese hitter.

Ichiro is anything but typical. He's the only player to ever hit 200 base hits in a single season, and he did it with a 130 game season. Typical players don't win the Batting Title seven years in a row. This statement sounds like a troll.

- No, pitchers in Japan don't throw in much. They will instead try to get the hitter to swing at a pitch way outside or chase something in the dirt.

The Giants' Matsui and Kiyohara both are a bit weak on inside pitches, and many pitchers throw in on them. But try to get one high and tight to Kintetsu's Nakamura and he'll hit the ball out of the park.

Low and away is how most Japanese pitchers throw to foreigners. After all, to use another false, overly general statement, foreign batters always go fishing for those low and away pitches. I take it that you were a foreign player and got a steady stream of low and away pitches. That's the first test any foreign player must pass, because so many Japanese pitchers think that it is a fact. Those foreigners that chase 'em low and away often won't see much else.

As another guest pointed out, Higashio kept batters from crowding the plate well. He is also the "Dead Ball King" of all time, hitting more batters than anyone else in the history of the game here.

Furthermore, hit batsmen were becoming a serious problem a number of years ago. To try to protect more players, a new rule was introduce whereby a pitcher hitting a batter in the head was automatically ejected - whether the umpire thought it was an accident or not. That rule still lingers on in the Central League.

Nonetheless, I believe that the number of hit batsmen have been reduced since this rule has taken effect - so there may be some truth to less pitchers throwing inside with great consistancy. I don't have any data on me to make the arguement either way, though. Total hit batsmen per year would be a good query to support or refute the arguement, though.

Anyone who says Ichiro is a typical Japanese hitter doesn't really know Japanese baseball. Yes, Japanese hitters are generally better contact hitters, but Ichiro is exceptional. It's like saying Rod Carew and Tony Gwynn are average contact hitters. Come on, GUEST.

In ESPN the magazine last year, they described Ichiro like this. He has the batting skill of Rod Carew, the speed of Kenny Lofton, and the arm of Roberto Clemente. He is anything but typical.

I wonder why Ichiro is listed at 5'9", 160 lbs in the U.S.? He is not that small. I think part of it is to build up the myth that he's so little yet he's a wizard with the bat.

For crying out loud, Bret Boone is listed at 5'11" but when you see him and Ichi standing side by side they're almost the same exact height. I bet Ichi is more like 5'10", 165 or 170 lbs.

If Ichiro is 5'9", 160 lbs., then pigs can fly.

> I wonder why Ichiro is listed at 5'9", 160 lbs in the
> U.S.? He is not that small. I think part of it is
> to build up the myth that he's so little yet he's a
> wizard with the bat.
>
> For crying out loud, Bret Boone is listed at 5'11"
> but when you see him and Ichi standing side by side
> they're almost the same exact height. I bet Ichi is
> more like 5'10", 165 or 170 lbs.
>
> If Ichiro is 5'9", 160 lbs., then pigs can fly.

His official height as listed by NPB's webpage was 180 cm, or 5 ft 10.8 inches. They listed his weight as 71 kg, which is 154 lbs. I can't help but think that is the weight from his rookie year when he was a skinny kid. He has a lot of toned, dense muscle mass which is heavier than fat.

This 2001 season preview in Asian Weekly.com lists him at 5'10" and 175 lbs. That sounds right, but I don't know where they got their info.

The accompanying article "Getting Into Full Swing" has a great quote by Yankees Pacific Rim coordinator John Cox that he may wish he could take back:

pigs must fly then... Boone is no where near 5'10"

Then what is Boone? He ain't taller than 5'10". If he's taller than 5'10" then Mike Piazza is straight.

I have a rookie card of Ichiro from upper deck and it lists him at 5'10" 175lbs, I went to the Coliseum to see him play and my friend thinks he's more in the 180 range.

Yeah, 5'10", 175~180 lbs. sounds about right. There's just no way that Ichiro is only 5'9", 160 lbs. I hate it when the announcers in the U.S. say things like, "It's amazing that someone that small can do what he does!"

Dan Patrick on ESPN's SportCenter said the following after Ichi batted 3rd this season: "At 5'9", 160 pounds, Ichiro is anything but the prototypical 3rd batter in a team's lineup."

As CFIJ-san pointed out, in Japan he was listed at 180 cm which is well above 5'10".

In the old days, a lot of players who bat 3rd or cleanup were around that height and weight. Hell, Hank Aaron was only 6'0", 180 lbs. and Willie Mays was only 5'11", 175 lbs. or something like that and Sadaharu Oh was only about 5'10", 170 lbs. or so.

Nowadays, someone who's 5'10", 170 lbs. is considered small just because everyone's on the juice. Sammy Sosa had a chance to clear his name, but he had a hissy fit instead.

Two players of smaller stature that come immediately to mind are Steve Garvey and Ron Cey, who were both pretty feared hitters. Both came in at about 5'10".
Garvey had those massive forearms, though.

And I would concur that anyone who thinks Ichiro is a prototypical Japanese hitter is a moron. That's like saying Wade Boggs or Matty Alou are prototypical MLB hitters. Yes, you have your contact hitters, then you have your big bruisers like Nakamura, Etoh, Kiyohara, Kokubo, and Johjima and so forth. Matsui lead the league in batting last season and he isn't exactly a contact guy (well, when he makes contact, it tends to go over 400 feet).

Oh yeah, who can forget Garvey, who was listed at 5'10", and Cey, who I think was listed at 5'9"? Sure, they were stockily built, but back in the old days that was the norm. Now those guys would be considered small. Frank Howard was huge, but he was an aberration.

I don't mean to digress, but when I was a kid growing up in the U.S. I was a huge Steve Garvey fan. I sent him some baseball cards in the mail and he signed them for me. He had such a wholesome image in the media. Little did I know that he was hated with a passion by his teammates. I found out much later after I had grown up that he wasn't the angel that everyone made him out to be. I learned that he had fought on separate occasions with catcher Steve Yeager and pitcher Don Sutton among others.
During his playing days he had the best-looking wife in all of sports, but he ruined that by having numerous affairs and fathering a couple of illegitimate children.
All in all though, he was a damn good ballplayer.