Adjust Font Size: A A       Guest settings   Register

JPBPA to Back Iwakuma

Discussion in the NPB News forum
JPBPA to Back Iwakuma
The Players Association has said it will back Hisashi Iwakuma who is asking Orix to assign his contract to the newly formed Rakuten Eagles. [Link Daily Yomiuri]
Comments
Re: JPBPA to Back Iwakuma
[ Author: Christopher | Posted: Nov 23, 2004 8:08 PM | HAN Fan ]

Okada-kantoku has been saying that he would be interested in signing Iwakuma as well.
Re: JPBPA to Back Iwakuma
[ Author: Guest: John Brooks | Posted: Nov 25, 2004 4:01 AM ]

This is an interesting opinion on Iwakuma's situation by Yomiuri's Jim Allen here [Daily Yomiuri].
Re: JPBPA to Back Iwakuma
[ Author: Christopher | Posted: Nov 25, 2004 12:05 PM | HAN Fan ]

It's a well argued piece that I find myself completely in agreement with. I am hoping that Iwakuma gets his wish to play wherever he wants.
Re: JPBPA to Back Iwakuma
[ Author: torakichi | Posted: Nov 25, 2004 7:42 PM | HT Fan ]

Surely that's too radical a change to hope for anytime soon. Still, while change has been glacially slow, it happens: free agency, use of agents in contract negotiations, a say in this year's merger debacle, etc. So, who knows? Maybe we'll tell our baseball-fan grandchildren, "Back in my day, lad, baseball players had to play where they were jolly-well told. There was none of this new-fangled 'freedom of employment' back then."

That would be right before we tell them we don't understand their music, that they should get a haircut and a real job, and that we used to walk 3 hours to school in the snow without shoes, and...
Re: JPBPA to Back Iwakuma
[ Author: mijow | Posted: Nov 25, 2004 10:56 PM | HT Fan ]

Well Jim makes some interseting points, but he doesn't really address the issue of a possible alternative to the present setup. Having savaged the current system using his usual racy language, I think he should at least make some positive suggestions as to what to replace it with.

Is he suggesting more liberal free agency rules? Or truly enforcing the existing rules, and making the signing process more transparent? Or is he suggesting a free-for-all in which the richest clubs end up signing most of the young talent?

The system is undoubtedly unjust for many players, but are there any alternatives that might work better? Most professional sports leagues around the world have some sort of regulated draft procedure. And those that don't find themselves wishing they did.
Re: JPBPA to Back Iwakuma
[ Author: westbaystars | Posted: Nov 26, 2004 12:28 AM | YBS Fan ]

His "usual racy language" is right! When he wrote:
An apologist might say the draft system is excusable because professional athletes make so much money, or that such rules are essential for balance among teams.
Bells and whistles were ringing for me. The first excuse was just a distraction to present two issues in hopes that he could hook the reader into thinking he's being semi-reasonable. He wanted to attack the idea that the draft was a fair system, and anyone who thought so must be an "apologist" (although it's not clear for whom).

While I agree with Allen-san's arguements thereafter about how unfair the whole system is against players' freedoms, I don't see how the problem is with the draft. The problem is with extended periods of indentured service to a club with little to no say about getting traded before the end of approximately nine years. He never convinces me that the draft is the problem, yet there's the straw man standing there, waiting to be knocked down.

I, too, was left at the end of the article wondering if Jim hasn't become a Watanabe apologist. If the draft is done away with, then there's nothing stopping the Giants from buying any and all players they want. It may not be a perfect system, but it's a good sized road block keeping some distribution of talent possible.

What I think is going on is that Rakuten and the Players Association (since long before) are trying to get the draft to be a straight waiver system, doing away with drawings in the first two rounds and the jiyu waku (formerly known as gyaku-shimei or "reverse designation) system where college and/or Industrial League players may choose where they want to play - up to two per team. To counter that, the Yomiuri Group is putting out a media blitz to counter such ideas before they become an issue. Kind of like how GW Bush planted the idea that Iraq had something to do with 9/11 (contrary to all evidence) in order to get backing for an attack. By having a preemptive strike on the media to make such a straight waiver system look unfair, Nabetsune (yes, I still think he's running things) is hoping to block any such reform.

Jim's been very atune to what's going on behind the scenes with the Yomiuri Group in the past, especially with the whole merger thing. It's good to keep an eye on what he says. And in between the loaded words and straw man offenses, there's a great deal of possible interpretation of his writing.

[Fixed beginning of post (strange characters crept in) on Nov 26, 2004 8:36 AM JST]
Re: JPBPA to Back Iwakuma
[ Author: Guest: John Brooks | Posted: Nov 26, 2004 1:06 AM ]

Right now in the NPB there's a problem with the draft and the competitive balance of the teams. Also there is no easy solution that won't end up sooner or later helping Yomiuri. Yomiuri always gets what they want. They got Tuffy Rhodes and then got Hiroki Kobuko for nothing.

The point still remains, Iwakuma shouldn't play for a team he had no interest in playing for. No one else in the economic world is held to the their job if two companies merge. Also, there is the fact that Orix said they would also try to accomodate anyone who didn't want to play for the new merged team. The fact remains that this didn't happen, and Iwakuma is most likely left playing for the Orix Buffaloes next year against his will.
Re: JPBPA to Back Iwakuma
[ Author: Christopher | Posted: Nov 26, 2004 8:56 AM | HAN Fan ]

Whilst Yomiuri holds the power, any change in the system is going to favour them. The need is to break this power. There are signs that this might happen with the introduction of new teams and ideas and the blocking of the one league system. However, Yomiuri need to be stripped of their television rights (though I cannot see this happening). I am almost tempted to suggest a salary cap (though this has enormous disadvantages) as it would stop the Giants' abuse of their resources.

I still think that Jim's comments are valid, even though he doesn't suggest solutions. What I have noticed about the Yomiuri management is that currently they don't think through the consequences of their decisions, and as a result, have gotten seriously burned by the results. I have a suspicion that the draft issue could turn out to be another one of these cases.
Re: JPBPA to Back Iwakuma
[ Author: westbaystars | Posted: Nov 26, 2004 9:29 AM | YBS Fan ]

Thank you Brooks-san for pointing out the undisputed facts of the article. I should have done that to make sure that I wasn't mis-understood as thinking that the current system was fair to Iwakuma, or any ball player for that matter. Or that the draft does accomplish the goal of providing competitive balance, which it doesn't.

That's the insidiousness of articles like the one Jim wrote: that I agree with all of the examples and evidence that he gave, but disagree with his contention that the draft is the root of the problem.

Players need freedom to market themselves, true. And there needs to be something in place to distribute talent to teams fairly. The problem with running a monopoly (which NPB is, like MLB) is how to regulate it in such a way that it creates the maximum "social good" while properly compensating those who have to do the work that wouldn't otherwise be done if a monopoly wasn't granted. [See this Financial Times article on IP monopolies and why they don't work. Down with software patents!] I fail to see how dismantaling the draft system (which Jim was attacking via proxy) will create a greater social good in NPB.

Anyway, Orix should not have kept Iwakuma after he asked them not to put him on the protected list. And their trying to convince him to stay by sending Ohgi-kantoku to meet with him no less than three times over the last couple of weeks is seriously damaging their image. So far for Orix, the entire forcing the merger through has done nothing but produce negative publicity for them.
Re: JPBPA to Back Iwakuma
[ Author: Christopher | Posted: Nov 26, 2004 10:38 AM | HAN Fan ]

Westbay-san, perhaps you may be mistaken in consiering the NPB as a monopoly. The NPB does not have the power to act as a monopoly. It is not the organisation that decides to admit or exclude new teams for example. This is the perogative of the owners. Likewise, the NPB had no influence on the merger issue. Compensation is decided between teams and players, not with the NPB. The toothlessness of the NPB is why the draft has become a problem. With a properly run system, then maybe the draft would be a good way of ensuring fairness, but only for a short period. No player should be required to sign for more than say two years to any team.

However, it would be the NPB who administered the draft without pre-draft choices by the teams or interference from the teams. If the current system was dismantled, it would expose the reality of the selection process.
Re: JPBPA to Back Iwakuma
[ Author: Guest: Jim Albright | Posted: Nov 26, 2004 11:59 AM ]

The NPB's key issues are (1) Yomiuri acts as though it isn't bound by the rules applicable to other teams, and nobody makes them behave by the rules, to say nothing of their being far too powerful; (2) there is a revenue and competitive imbalance; and (3) there is a threat posed by competition from MLB.

Perhaps the second would be easiest to resolve by taking a sizeable percentage of every team's revenues (50% would be best, but a lesser percentage to start would do) and create a fund everybody shares in, but with significant incentives (i.e. a larger share) for winning as well as requirements of a minimum level of player salaries. If they did that one, it would be hard to rig for Yomiuri, and might help in the effort to reduce Yomiuri's undue influence.

A key difference between Yomiuri and the New York Yankees is that, while the Yankees may not like the rules and have outsized economic power, they still are held to the rules that apply to all teams. The Yankees can and do lobby to keep the rules as favorable as possible, but they know they couldn't hope to be as successful by leaving MLB with a few teams they might be able to persuade to join them as they are within MLB. Yomiuri feels, with ample justification, that they can leave NPB if they wish, and probably persuade at least three teams to join them and ultimately win the fight against the teams left behind. Therefore, they feel no compulsion to have rules which seriously inhibit them in what they want to do. So long as this state of affairs exists, NPB will have a glaring imbalance and consequent weakness inherent in its structure.

Finally, MLB may not seem a huge problem at present, but if the weaknesses within NPB become larger, MLB will be a more significant problem as it competes for scarce resources, namely talented players. Additionally, if NPB were to completely loosen the reins on its players, MLB would not take long to swoop in and take much of the talent it deems worth taking.

I don't know how to resolve the second and third issues, though broadening the reach of NPB to some alliance/cooperation with other Asian leagues would help. Also, lifting the restriction on the number of foreign players and replacing it with a cap on the amount of salary which could be spent on such players would be positive. Hopefully this last step would encourage development of young players from many places (the Dominican Republic, Venezuela, etc.). Further efforts to develop talent inside and outside of Japan shouldn't hurt NPB's position - and revenue sharing would help fund such player development. A cap on spending on foreign players means developing a lot of young cheap foreign stars would be another way to compete, while limiting the checkbook power of clubs like the Giants.

I wouldn't favor a salary cap for Japanese players, as it might unwittingly cause problems for NPB teams to retain home grown stars rather than lose them to MLB.

Beyond that, I'm not sure what specifics I'd suggest, but any measures taken should try to have a positive effect in at least one of the three key areas, and a minimal or no net negative effects in the others.

I can't see how doing away with the draft would do more good than harm in any of the three key areas of concern I've listed - and likely would create significant additional problems in the first two areas. A straight waiver draft, without the ability to choose to play for the Giants or any other team, would be an improvement IMO. A player's time until his release from his NPB service would start either when he was first drafted by a NPB team or, if he was not drafted, when he first signed a contract with an NPB team. A team would hold a player's rights for one year, like in the majors, and if they failed to sign him in that time, he would be eligible to be drafted again. That way, a player would have some say in where he worked as has proven to be the case in the majors. The Giants would still surely try to manipulate the system to their advantage, but it would be harder to achieve than it is presently.

Jim Albright

[First paragraph fixed on Nov 26, 2004 11:26 PM, JST]
Re: JPBPA to Back Iwakuma
[ Author: Guest: Erik Schullstrom | Posted: Nov 27, 2004 4:03 PM ]

I'm not understanding something here. Why would Orix let go of Iwakuma? They hold his rights don't they? Just as the new DC team holds the rights to Jose Vidro. If Vidro said he didn't want to play in DC now that the team has different ownership and is in a new city, does anyone think that Washington would just let him go without getting something in return?

I agree that the NPB draft system is a total joke, and that the amount of time a player is held hostage before becoming a free agent is way too long. But isn't he under contract? If I was them, I wouldn't just leave him unprotected or let him sign with someone else without getting a something substantial in return.

If Orix agrees to just let him go, I would say they are fools. I beleive the majority of sports franchises around the world, and not just baseball, participate in a draft system (albeit nothing as stupid NPB's), and players can either sign or not sign. That's it. I don't get it!
Re: JPBPA to Back Iwakuma
[ Author: Guest: John Brooks | Posted: Nov 28, 2004 1:12 AM ]

- Why would Orix let go of Iwakuma? They hold his rights don't they? Just as the new DC team holds the rights to Jose Vidro. If Vidro said he didn't want to play in DC now that the team has different ownership and is in a new city, does anyone think that Washington would just let him go without getting something in return?

Orix hasn't let Iwakuma go as they put him on the protected players list. Though the point is Iwakuma didn't ask to play for the merged Orix-Kintestu team, and even after ownership said they would accomodate anyone who didn't want to play with the new team. The point remains the Expos moved to Washington, they didn't merge, so they didn't have to go through the same thing.

Though, in conclusion Iwakuma shouldn't have to play for a team he had no interest in playing for, you don't have to work for your company if they merge and neither should Iwakuma if he has no interest in playing for the new merged team.
Re: JPBPA to Back Iwakuma
[ Author: Guest: Erik Schullstrom | Posted: Nov 28, 2004 5:26 PM ]

I understand that Washington didn't merge, but I could think of no other comparable situation. I must admit that if Orix stated that they would accomodate anyone who did not want to play for the new Orix/Kintetsu team, then they should have honored that. But why do you think Iwakuma shouldn't have to play for a team he has no interest playing for? There are many players who would rather play for a different team.

Should it then be a rule that a player can change teams whenever they wish? Sports organizations do not work that way. Sports are not like regular businesses where you can quit and be hired by another company when you wish. It is entertainment, and there are rules to keep a level playing field. These rules are in the best interest of fair competition.

What would you be saying if Iwakuma said he wanted to play for the Giants instead? Take a moment and really think about it. Would everyone be rushing to his defense? I doubt it. Speaking as a former player in both NPB and MLB (although not a real good one), my opinion is if a player signs a contract, he should honor it.

Again, I should reiterate. If Orix did say that they would accomdate him, they should stand by their word.
Re: JPBPA to Back Iwakuma
[ Author: Guest: John Brooks | Posted: Nov 29, 2004 12:42 AM ]

- But why do you think
Re: JPBPA to Back Iwakuma
[ Author: Guest | Posted: Nov 29, 2004 9:40 AM ]

- Iwakuma was drafted by the Osaka Kintestu Buffaloes, not Orix. He was drafted by a different team and shouldn't have to play for Orix if he has no interest.

Everyone's making the point that a player doesn't have to play for a team that he doesn't want to play for. Well, if that was the case, why not give every player out there a no-trade clause? Then, players would only join teams that they wanted to because they could veto any trade to a team that they wouldn't want to play for.

But, sorry to say, that's not how baseball works. Not only in Japan, but also in North America, trades are a part of the game. Playing for teams that you don't want to play for is also part of the game. Live with it. If Iwakuma doesn't want to play for the Orix Buffalos, that's too bad because half the players in baseball would probably rather play for another team, but they aren't. That's how the baseball world works because this is one of the few ways that teams are kept in balance.

The fact that the management said that they will respect any player's decision not to play on the merged team is a completely different story.

The merged teams should have the right to any player that they protected, as that was what was agreed upon at the time the merger took place.
Re: JPBPA to Back Iwakuma
[ Author: Guest: John Brooks | Posted: Nov 29, 2004 11:03 PM ]

- Playing for teams that you don't want to play for is also part of the game. Live with it. If Iwakuma doesn't want to play for the Orix Buffalos, that's too bad because half the players in baseball would probably rather play for another team, but they aren't.

Forcing Iwakuma to play for the newly merged team can only undermine player rights. That the player shouldn't have to play for Orix, when they said they would accomodate anyone who didn't want to play for the new team.

- Under the merger agreement the Buffaloes could protect players, and they protected their ace, as any competent ownership would have done. And yes, he should have to play for Orix. What would be a better alternative to the way the merger and distribution draft was handled?

A better alternative would have been to sell the Buffaloes to Livedoor, and we most likely wouldn't be having this situation with Iwakuma now, as the Buffaloes will still be a single team and so would Orix.

- And yes, he should have to play for Orix.

Again, forcing Iwakuma to play for the Orix Buffaloes will do nothing but create negative publicity and undermine player rights. But that doesn't matter, does it?
Re: JPBPA to Back Iwakuma
[ Author: Guest: Erik Schullstrom | Posted: Nov 29, 2004 12:21 PM ]

It doesn't matter who drafted Iwakuma. The point is that when the teams merged, they protected him. His contract now belongs to the new club. Let's not get silly and say that the new merged team is a completely different entity than Kintestsu because it is not. Under the merger agreement the Buffaloes could protect players, and they protected their ace, as any competent ownership would have done. And yes, he should have to play for Orix. What would be a better alternative to the way the merger and distribution draft was handled? Something like MLB's Expansion Draft perhaps? Every team in both leagues protect 15 players and the rest are available? That would have been OK with Rakuten because they are a brand new team. Does anyone seriously think that the Buffaloes should have just let their best pitcher go because he doesn't want to play for the merged team?

Anyhow, what exactly is Iwakuma's reason for not wanting to play for the Orix Buffaloes?
Re: JPBPA to Back Iwakuma
[ Author: mijow | Posted: Nov 29, 2004 10:28 PM | HT Fan ]

Erik, I have one of your cards from your days at Hiroshima! It's good to see input from people who know how the system works first hand. BTW, are you still involved in scouting for Hiroshima, or are you more involved with the Golden Baseball League now?

Anyway, I agree with you that if the rules are specific, then everyone should be bound by them. But it's really up to the team to enforce the rules. Orix probably has every right to try and enforce the relevant provisions of Iwakuma's contract. However, I suspect that they're simply spooked by the new-found power of the Players' Association, and they're not exactly itching for another fight. They're taking the path of least resistance here.
Re: JPBPA to Back Iwakuma
[ Author: Guest: Erik Schullstrom | Posted: Nov 30, 2004 1:53 AM ]

Sorry that you have one of my card's, it's surely worth 1/2 Yen!

Anyhow, I work full time as the USA Scouting Director for the Carp. My position with the newly formed Golden League is simply as a consultant. Thanks for the kind comment.
Re: JPBPA to Back Iwakuma
[ Author: Christopher | Posted: Nov 30, 2004 7:34 AM | HAN Fan ]

- But it's really up to the team to enforce the rules. Orix probably has every right to try and enforce the relevant provisions of Iwakuma's contract.

This is part of the problem - it should be the NPB who decides issues like this. However, if Orix have publicly declared that they are not going to enforce the rules in advance, they have absolutely no right to do so later on when it suits them.
Re: JPBPA to Back Iwakuma
[ Author: mijow | Posted: Nov 30, 2004 11:29 AM | HT Fan ]

I agree, but that's simply the way it is at the moment. Of course written contracts have less weight in Japan than in other places - in every field, not just baseball. It's a cultural thing. I know this infuriates those of us who believe in transparency and the rule of law, but that's the situation. Now, it may well change, especially with the new breed of owner coming into Pro Yakyu, but some Japanese customs will never die I suppose.
Re: JPBPA to Back Iwakuma
[ Author: Christopher | Posted: Nov 29, 2004 2:24 PM | HAN Fan ]

There is a misconception that sports are somehow not like other businesses and that the rights we expect in normal life do not apply to sports people. This is, of course, a falacy. Just because sports organisations do not work that way does not make it correct.

If Iwakuma wanted to play for the Giants I would support him just as much because it would be his wish. You have to remember that sports people are human beings not property to be bought and sold.
Re: JPBPA to Back Iwakuma
[ Author: Guest: Jim Albright | Posted: Nov 30, 2004 1:33 AM ]

In some ways, this misses the point that the entity the players play for is the league in many ways. Yes, the teams compete with each other, etc., but the league is the one with the collective bargaining agreement, such as it is. Certainly, businesses can and do restrict how their employees move within the organization - just as NPB does. A player can choose not to play for NPB, but because of the salaries and the skill set involved, his options are more limited, but the rewards are greater.

Certainly, NPB is far too restrictive in what it gives its players in terms of freedom and salary, IMO. But the league has the obligation to do what is best for itself, and efforts to ensure that talent is not totally concentrated in only one or two teams (like the draft) are needed for the league's well being. Perhaps a greater degree of free agency combined with a salary cap would be more aesthetically pleasing and just as effective toward the goal of talent dispersal - but it might contain a poison pill when it comes to keeping top Japanese talent.

My feeling is that if you don't like the draft, you have to come up with a means to disperse talent approximately as well as the current system does without introducing new weaknesses in the league. I'm unconvinced anyone in this discussion has accomplished that.

Jim Albright
Re: JPBPA to Back Iwakuma
[ Author: Christopher | Posted: Nov 30, 2004 12:55 PM | HAN Fan ]

You make some essential points Jim, and I think your proposal for greater free agency coupled with a salary cap is perhaps the least onerous. The NPB, though, doesn't have the power or the will to improve the situation. Looking at how other sports handle their young players though, none of the major ones rely on a draft.
Re: JPBPA to Back Iwakuma
[ Author: Guest: Jim Albright | Posted: Nov 30, 2004 10:15 PM ]

- You make some essential points Jim, and I think your proposal for greater free agency coupled with a salary cap is perhaps the least onerous. The NPB, though, doesn't have the power or the will to improve the situation. Looking at how other sports handle their young players though, none of the major ones rely on a draft.

The NPB certainly has the power to improve the situation, but not the will (did you perhaps mean the NPB Players' Association - in which case, you are quite right).

With respect to other sports, I don't understand what you are saying. Basketball and football both have drafts (NBA and NFL), but do not tie up players for nearly as long as NPB. This is probably mainly due to the old paternalism of NPB. But tying up players for a fair period of time may well be essential for NPB to protect itself from MLB.

As I said before, I have misgivings about a salary cap for all players as well, on the grounds this may well weaken NPB's ability to keep its best players.

Jim Albright
Re: JPBPA to Back Iwakuma
[ Author: Guest: Erik Schullstrom | Posted: Dec 1, 2004 3:54 AM ]

Well said.
Re: JPBPA to Back Iwakuma
[ Author: Guest: Jim Albiright | Posted: Dec 1, 2004 11:26 AM ]

Erik:

If you ever have interest in a statistically based analysis of how a minor leaguer might be expected to do in Japan, we might be able to work out a mutually beneficial arrangement. If you are interested, contact me through the link to contact me on this page [Baseball Guru].

Jim Albright
Re: JPBPA to Back Iwakuma
[ Author: Christopher | Posted: Dec 1, 2004 10:00 AM | HAN Fan ]

By major sports I am referring to global sports like football (soccer) or rugby. NBA and NFL don't really qualify in that respect.

I agree with you about a salary cap - I don't really like the idea but can see the advantage for retaining talent in Japan (even though I am not really convinced that this is essential either).
Re: JPBPA to Back Iwakuma
[ Author: Guest: Jim Albright | Posted: Dec 2, 2004 12:44 AM ]

I'll buy soccer, and yes, the NFL is pretty much a USA only entity. But I'll put the NBA up against rugby any day. The NBA may only play in the states, but it has a serious international presence--much like the major soccer leagues, IMO. Soccer's truly international scope plus the fact players are at least as durable as those in basketball help it work that way. However, there are a limited number of truly elite teams--and they seem to stay that way year after year. A draft works to alleviate this problem, as does a salary cap.

Also, I think you misunderstand what I am saying about a salary cap--I think it would hamper NPB in keeping top talent, because in order to keep top talent, they would have to pay middle level and below players less--but a crying need in NPB is the need to develop more talent. If they do that, the majors may become more attractive to Japanese youngsters. If they hold the line on top salaries, the top players will have more incentive to leave. Either course has significant pitfalls.

Jim Albright
Re: JPBPA to Back Iwakuma
[ Author: Christopher | Posted: Dec 2, 2004 1:01 PM | HAN Fan ]

No, NBA does not qualify as a global sport. Its marketing would like people to believe this, but that is all. I used rugby as an example because it follows a set of internationally defined laws, it is played in several countries, there is considerable touring, and it has a properly organised world tournament.

I have never been convinced by the arguments about the draft - elite teams can and do lose. I would say it is up to a team to make itself one of the elite, not an artificial levelling mechanism.

I wonder if, in talking about salary caps and the like, we are under-valuing the amount of Japanese talent. Whilst many talented Japanese players may want to go to the major leagues, many won't. I also think that there is too much talent for the majors to absorb. "Fears are misplaced" may be a good summation of my thoughts on this issue. My objections to salary caps stem from the belief that you should pay what the market decides, but I can see why a salary cap could have its uses.
Re: JPBPA to Back Iwakuma
[ Author: Guest: Jim Albright | Posted: Dec 3, 2004 2:35 AM ]

- I have never been convinced by the arguments about the draft - elite teams can and do lose. I would say it is up to a team to make itself one of the elite, not an artificial levelling mechanism.

I wonder if, in talking about salary caps and the like, we are under-valuing the amount of Japanese talent. Whilst many talented Japanese players may want to go to the major leagues, many won't. I also think that there is too much talent for the majors to absorb. "Fears are misplaced" may be a good summation of my thoughts on this issue.


I'm not sure a draft is best, either, but I have yet to see anybody suggest a method which is clearly better for NPB. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this point.

As for what Japanese talent does, for those who are not clearly starters at the major league level, it may well be better off for them to stay in Japan, at least at this point. But when it comes to players who have the talent to fill a key role (starter, closer reliever, or relief set-up man), many more have gone than stayed. In fact, most of those who have gone have done so at a significant discount on their true value, and even from the salaries they could command in NPB. Quite a few have lobbied to be posted as well.

The only two exceptions who at least arguably had the talent, were under 33 years old or so, and had the opportunity to go and chose not to were Nakamura and Kokubo. They weren't the biggest NPB talents avaiable at the time, either. I'd say so far 80% or more of the players who have had the opportunity to go since Ichiro did it who had the talent to start in the majors and who were young enough to draw interest (that's why the 33-year-old bit) have gone to the majors.
Re: JPBPA to Back Iwakuma
[ Author: Christopher | Posted: Dec 3, 2004 11:34 AM | HAN Fan ]

- But when it comes to players who have the talent to fill a key role (starter, closer reliever, or relief set-up man), many more have gone than stayed. In fact, most of those who have gone have done so at a significant discount on their true value, and even from the salaries they could command in NPB. Quite a few have lobbied to be posted as well.

It is perhaps a reflection of the principle that the grass is greener on the other side and that treatment is better. I have noticed that many players have also become disillusioned and returned to Japan. Many, I think, have the talent but cannot adjust to the different style required, or do not want to. It is a similar situation for American players coming to the NPB.

Furthermore, the MLB interest in pre-draft Japanese players does not seem to generate much interest from them. If the market were opened up, I believe that you would see an initial rush which would die out once the novelty wore off. However, opening the market up would be the right move as more Japanese talent (and it is more than just Nakamura and Kokubo) would have the chance to try something different.
Re: JPBPA to Back Iwakuma
[ Author: Guest: Jim Albright | Posted: Dec 4, 2004 1:07 AM ]

Christopher:

I never
Re: JPBPA to Back Iwakuma
[ Author: Christopher | Posted: Dec 4, 2004 12:35 PM | HAN Fan ]

Jim,

I can't read your first line, so hopefully I am not writing anything that you have already said.

Pitching wise there is very little in the NPB. Matsuzaka certainly, and maybe Iwakuma, but MLB pitching is so much superior. Batting wise there are a lot of players: Kanemoto, Kokubo (you've already mentioned him), and Shima spring to mind, as well as Akahoshi (who coped very well with the MLB pitchers in the recent All Stars series).
Re: JPBPA to Back Iwakuma
[ Author: Guest: Jim Albright | Posted: Dec 5, 2004 1:34 AM ]

Kanemoto was capable of doing that, but he's not young, and thus, not a prospect from the MLB point of view. I haven't run the equivalents of the other two you mention, so I won't comment.

My first line in the earlier post was that I never said only Kokubo and Nakamura were capable of going to the majors, but they were the only ones who met the criteria I had set (young enough, talented enough, and had the opportuntiy but stayed).

Jim Albright
Re: JPBPA to Back Iwakuma
[ Author: Guest: Jim Albright | Posted: Nov 27, 2004 9:43 PM ]

Also, there should be a meaningful salary arbitration system for players with at least two years' service to the big club. The value in this to the league is to keep players satisfied and hopefully dissuade them from leaving for the majors when they can do so.

Jim Albright
Re: JPBPA to Back Iwakuma
[ Author: mijow | Posted: Nov 28, 2004 8:50 AM | HT Fan ]

There's also the question of agents. Until a few years ago players weren't permitted to engage the services of an agent to represent them in salary negotiations. Now they can, but the agent isn't allowed to represent more than one player, and he also has to be a licensed lawyer. And the Giants still don't recognise the right of agents to represent players anyway. These onerous restrictions should be lifted.

And this is the sort of meaningful suggestion I would expect Jim Allen to make if he wanted to write a balanced article about player rights.
Re: JPBPA to Back Iwakuma
[ Author: Guest: Jim Albright | Posted: Nov 29, 2004 12:30 AM ]

I missed the agents issue, but I wholeheartedly agree.

Jim Albright
Re: JPBPA to Back Iwakuma
[ Author: Guest: John Brooks | Posted: Dec 1, 2004 7:04 AM ]

Iwakuma said Tuesday he wants to be traded to the Rakuten Eagle in a cash deal. Iwakuma had the following statement "I don't have any option in mind but to be dealt to Rakuten for cash," and "It will annoy the player invovled if it's a player-for-player deal and I don't want to see this happen."

If Orix refuses to trade Iwakuma now, they're building negative publicity and denying player rights. It's time for Orix to make the right decision and trade Iwakuma instead of trying to force him to play for a team he had no interest at all playing for. [Link - Japan Ball]
Re: JPBPA to Back Iwakuma
[ Author: Guest: Gary Garland | Posted: Dec 2, 2004 4:27 AM ]

I think that the charge le?dd?Re: JPBPA to Back IwakumaSd to as "a cornpone opinion (i.e, tell me where a man gets his cornpone and I'll tell you what his opinions are)," is going a bit overboard. In pure market terms, Jim is absolutely right. However, on a practical level, a talent free for all would be detrimental both financially and possibly in terms of competition, though that is admittedly debatable.

On the Iwakuma matter, he did sign his contract with Kintetsu, not Orix. So in a sense, he is being treated, as Jim points out, like chattel. I have no idea as to the legal enforceability of Iwakuma's tranfer to Orix under Japanese law. However, I believe that if NPB asserted that Iwakuma was beholden to Orix, I think MLB would probably disallow any attempt by him to sign with an MLB club.

Therefore, it seems to me that Iwakuma's only hope of going elsewhere is to pray that the owners don't want another squabble with the player's union. But the union has to watch it as well. With several players saying that they will be seeking big raises after earlier indicating that they were willing to accept
lower salaries in the name of maintaining the viability of NPB economically, they could see a backlash from fans if they are perceived as going too far and getting too greedy.

The unfortunate thing to me is that it appears that Iwakuma will be traded to Yomiuri in exchange for Hisanori Takahashi. So even under what we could perhaps call post-revolutionary times relative to NPB, the old guard still gets to have its way if the deal is executed. Kuyashii na~.
Re: JPBPA to Back Iwakuma
[ Author: Guest: John Brooks | Posted: Dec 3, 2004 11:17 AM ]

Right now the Iwakuma situation is at a crucial point - where Orix needs to trade Iwakuma to wherever he wishes. The NPB also is at a crossroads after this season. Numerous owners tried to force the merger through which caused the strike, which this, in turn, has increased the awarness of the Players' Association, made the establishment of the Rakuten Eagles possible, and is causing a backlash right now with Orix trying to force Iwakuma to play with Orix in 2005.
Re: JPBPA to Back Iwakuma
[ Author: Guest: John Brooks | Posted: Dec 7, 2004 12:08 PM ]

Orix GM Katsuhiro Nakamura will meet with the Commisioner over the Iwakuma issue. [Link - Daily Yomiuri]
Re: JPBPA to Back Iwakuma
[ Author: Guest: John Brooks | Posted: Dec 7, 2004 12:13 PM ]

Also, Orix is now blaming Rakuten of tampering charges. Orix is starting to build a hole in the Iwakuma situation and are now playing the blame game. They need to grant Iwakuma's wishes and trade him to Rakuten like he wishes instead of trying to force him to play for Orix next year. [Link - Japan Times]
Re: JPBPA to Back Iwakuma
[ Author: Guest: John Brooks | Posted: Dec 16, 2004 8:03 AM ]

After a third round of talks, the Orix Buffaloes and Iwakuma failed to reach an agreement. [Link - Daily Yomiuri]

Also, another interesting opinion on the Iwakuma situation by Jim Allen can be found here. [Link - Daily Yomiuri]
Re: JPBPA to Back Iwakuma
[ Author: Guest: John Brooks | Posted: Dec 18, 2004 7:40 AM ]

In a fourth round of talks Iwakuma and the Orix Buffaloes failed to reached an agreement. Iwakuma said "It has been difficult to play baseball for six months (ever since this merger was decided), I've told them I can't play for Orix. That is my final decision." Orix team President Takashi Koizumi said, "There is no way that we plan to bend on this matter. I'd like to continue meeting with him until we can persuade him to stay with club. We have no time limit."

Iwakuma said that he is fed up with the negoitations and the way they are going and is hoping that the Players Association will take over the negotiations with Orix on his behalf. [Link - JapanBall]
Re: JPBPA to Back Iwakuma
[ Author: Christopher | Posted: Dec 18, 2004 9:49 AM | HAN Fan ]

Last night Iwakuma gave a press conference in which he re-itterated that he would not play for Orix. He is also now refusing to talk to Orix management anymore about the issue. He has a very strong case for moving to Rakuten.
About

This is a site about Pro Yakyu (Japanese Baseball), not about who the next player to go over to MLB is. It's a community of Pro Yakyu fans who have come together to share their knowledge and opinions with the world. It's a place to follow teams and individuals playing baseball in Japan (and Asia), and to learn about Japanese (and Asian) culture through baseball.

It is my sincere hope that once you learn a bit about what we're about here that you will join the community of contributors.

Michael Westbay
(aka westbaystars)
Founder

Search for Pro Yakyu news and information
Copyright (c) 1995-2024 JapaneseBaseball.com.
This work is licensed under a Creative Commons License.
Some rights reserved.