Sadaharu Oh mentioned in Sports Illustrated

I think the interest in Hideki Matsui (a fellow power hitter) will give new attention to Sadaharu Oh in America. If Matusi does well, then people will begin to wonder what Oh-san could have done in MLB. It might even give hope to a HOF bid for Sadaharu Oh.

You may or may not be aware of the thread I started on the effort to get Oh into Cooperstown. My research indicates he is quite worthy, and can be found at baseballguru.com. Ultimately, I believe he will be enshrined there because some day I see the Major Leagues in Japan, and if that were to happen, they'd want to curry favor with their new Japanese fans, and Oh's enshrinement would be a perfect place to start. Also, Ichiro, one of the Matsuis, or somebody else will have one half a Cooperstown worthy career in Japan, and the other in the majors, and thus force recognition of Japanese baseball accomplishments. This will also push Oh's candidacy. Finally, there may be some hope in the shorter term because there are several Hall of Fame players on the HOF Board who played against Oh and have been quoted as assessing his talents in HOF terms. Craig Tomarkin and I are going to play that angle for what it is worth. Maybe it will be nothing, maybe it will count for a lot. We'll see.

The real issue to me is not whether Oh will eventually get that honor, but when. Hopefully, he'll still be around and healthy enough to enjoy it when it happens.

Jim Albright

Are there any Americans (who are not Nisei) in the JBHOF?

> Are there any Americans (who are not Nisei) in the
> JBHOF?

Lefty O'Doul. Victor Starrfin was Russian, not American, but he's not Japanese, and he's in the Japanese Hall of Fame. I think there are few others, but I can't recall at the moment. I'm sure Jim has an idea.

The entire list of the Japanese Hall of Famers in English is here.

Two other Americans, both of Japanese ancestry, are in the Japanese Hall: Wally Yonamine, and Tadashi Wakabayashi. The real tests for the Japanese Hall, IMO, are Boomer Wells and Bobby Rose. Those two have done more than enough to qualify for the Japanese Hall, as I detailed in my article on the 100 greatest players in Japanese baseball. Randy Bass and Leron Lee probably didn't have long enough careers, and Cabrera, Petagine, and Rhodes still haven't put in enough years to get there, but might. Wells will become eligible around 2007 and Rose around 2015. If neither are in by, say 2020, then we could very legitimately talk about discrimination. Until then, we cannot.

That being said, I'm not quite sure (beyond curiosity and/or stream of consciousness) what the Japanese Hall has done with Americans has to do with how Cooperstown should treat Japanese players. If Japan's HOF has discriminated, that is no reason to exclude Japanese players from Cooperstown. The question that is relevant is how good were the Japanese players when compared to legitimate Cooperstown enshrinees (I prefer to leave out clear mistakes like George Kelly and a few others)? If a player like Oh is of Cooperstown quality, he belongs, no ifs ands or buts about it, and if not, he doesn't. I think the evidence clearly shows Oh is of that quality, and have documented that at considerable length.

When it comes to the Japanese Hall, the same kind of question should apply, though the standards for their Hall are, if anything, even more amorphous than for Cooperstown. There is a strong emphasis on executives in the sport, and many high school/college players have received the honor regardless of what they did or did not do at higher levels. Also, there seems to have been a point made to honor some of the better professional players killed in WW II, even though their qualifications as baseball players do not seem overwhelming. Under the circumstances, one could certainly argue for Leron Lee and Bass, and no one could say they clearly fail to meet the standards already used.

Jim Albright

Yeah, it rated him underrated. It made light of some rather insensitive comments by Yogi Berra (who is still the best MLB catcher of all time, IMO), and Deford said that while Oh almost certainly would have hit 800 home runs, he would have definitely hit 500.

What kind of incensitive comments did Berra make? Could someone who's read the article elaborate a bit more on it? Thanks.

The Berra quote came after Aaron beat Oh 10-9 in a home run hitting contest. Berra said, "Aaron could be (sic--should be beat) that Nip in the dark at LaGuardia." Yogi probably is the greatest catcher of all time, and if not, is on the short list of candidates, but that quote is one of his worst moments.

Jim Albright

He sounded like he was still living WWII, fighting in the Pacific... It's especially ironic seeing how Oh and Aaron has been good friends after that for a long time now.

Just as a side note, I've always found it interesting how this home run contest is mentioned fairly frequently whenever a columnist or a website wants to talk about Oh. I guess it's a good introduction for North Americans of Oh knowing that he held his own against Aaron. But imagine if he lost 1-10 or something like that. His critics would have held it against him forever. Even though a home run contest like this should hold no significance in gauging the quality of a player whatsoever. I mean, some random power hitter from Japan or MLB, or even the minor leagues, could've hit 11 and beat them both for all we know.

I'm very confused. I have the latest ish in front of me, and it does indeed have the "Underrated/Overrated," but NO mention of Yogi Berra or Sadaharu Oh. The article starts with "Key to Phil Jackson's Success" and ends with "Way to Improve your NBA Team." In fact, the only mention of baseball is "Second Baseman" (Mazeroski overrated, Bobby Grich underrated). Did I miss something? Was this maybe a regional thing (I don't really expect an answer since none of us works for SI.... as far as I know .

Chris

See what I said at the top of the thread. Unfortunately, there isn't a page number to help.

Jim Albright

If Sadaharu Oh belongs in the American HOF, then by the same token don't Aaron, Ruth, and Mays belong in the Japanese HOF?

> If Sadaharu Oh belongs in the American HOF, then by
> the same token don't Aaron, Ruth, and Mays belong in
> the Japanese HOF?

Sure. Why not?

I guess one could make that argument about the Japanese Hall, but it is clear the Japanese Hall goes in a vastly different direction than trying to honor the greatest professional players of the game. Their Hall is uniquely Japanese -- Japanese high schoolers and Japanese collegians are honored there. Further, they are much more into honoring executives and officialdom than we would in the States. Cooperstown pretends it is honoring all the best players, then bars Oh and all other Japanese who clearly measure up. I think Cooperstown should measure up to what it says it is. I believe that is what Cooperstown should be, but really is not at this time. I am not Japanese, and therefore I am far more reluctant to tell them what their Hall should be all about. I will say this: their Hall is far more accurate in describing itself as the Japanese Baseball Hall of Fame than Cooperstown is in presenting itself as the place where all of the greatest baseball players ever are honored.

Besides, as I noted earlier in this thread, if in your opinion, the Japanese Hall isn't doing the right thing, how are we improving Cooperstown by a silly retaliatory refusal to induct Japanese players? That is trying to make a right out of two wrongs, and it just doesn't work that way.

Finally, Japanese baseball and American baseball are melding together. The influence of Oh on the American game will grow with each Ichiro, Hideki Matsui, et al who comes over and brings the influence of Japanese baseball into the American pastime. Oh has had a major impact on the Japanese game, as its best player ever, as its goodwill ambassador, and as a successful manager. That impact will be reflected by the Japanese players who come here. Also, as I have written numerous times before, and likely will again, in time I see Major League baseball in Japan, either by expansion or merger with some or all of the major Japanese teams. If and when that occurs, the majors will have a need to ingratiate themselves with their Japanese fans, and honoring at least some of the Japanese greats will become both a necessary and a natural step to take. Oh will be at the very top of the list of players to be honored if and when such a scenario comes to pass.

> I see Major League baseball in Japan,
> either by expansion or merger with some or all of the
> major Japanese teams.

Right on! Perhaps this isn't the thread to say this in, but I totally agree. The prospect of MLB and NPB merging or interacting in some form is really exciting. I really look forward to it.

I don't know if you can say Cooperstown "pretends" it is honoring all the best players. It is only for players who played in MLB or the Negro leagues. It clearly states this.

You also have to admit that if Oh belongs in Cooperstown than so do many others. What about many of the great Cuban players from the 50's to the 90's? People like Omar Linares, Antonio Munoz, and Victor Mesa. What about Mexico's Hector Espino or Pancho Coimbre of Puerto Rico?

For all the nice things former major leaguers say about Oh, why haven't any of them been more vocal about Oh and the HOF? As a Japanese-American I would love to see Oh-san in the American HOF, but right now Babe Ruth has as much right to be in the Japanese HOF as Oh does in this country's.

Read the Cooperstown's mission statement on its webpage. I maintain the language, plus the way it advertises itself, prove the truth of my statement about "pretending." Maybe many others do belong, it's just that nobody has made the case for them yet by doing the research. It is important that we don't water down the quality of inductees further. The Cubans of the Castro era will be the toughest due to the lack of comparisons to major league competition.

Jim Albright

The majors merging? Not in your lifetime, not unless they make a plane that flies across the ocean in 5 hours, have one time zone so a 7pm game is the same in the US and Japan, and not until there is some kind of stability with the currency. Fans at both ends would get ripped off by not being able to see their team play at a normal hour. The Korean, Chinese, and Japan leagues should merge, though.

The technology is an issue, but in the same vein, in the 30's and 40's, many people would have said the same about playing on the West Coast. Technology is evolving so rapidly, that what you suggest may well be commonplace within 20 years. As for exchange rates, players can contract to be paid in a certain currency (see Canada at this time). I don't think that is the issue you think it is. Furthermore, if the NPB were to collapse, I think the majors would rush in to fill the void to take advantage of the opportunity Japan presents, and would figure out how to deal with the travel concerns somehow.

Jim Albright