Iguchi Gets Questioned by Biased Media

But what exactly happened? Simply throwing someone out at third doesn't sound dumb to me. And didn't Iguchi drive in three RBIs including a two-run homer in a 6-4 victory?

What am I missing?

- [...] and all people in the media can do is say how dumb of a play it was.

Excuse me for my rambling here, but the media gets boring to listen to ramble on about what is dumb and isn't dumb. From reading the outcome of the play it looks very smart going to third to gun a runner out. I can't say I can reserve judgement on the play live, because I was in college all of yesterday during the Red Sox-White Sox's game, but the play was the right thing to do in my opinion.

- Do people realize how many Gold Gloves he has? Do they know the Hawks won 4 pennants in 6 years? Iguchi is a champion, and he knows what it takes to win. People need to stop underestimating his baseball intellect.

That's the problem with most announcers, sportswriters, and baseball analysts - they are completely clueless on the NPB. Like I said in the topic "NPB Needs to Stop Sending Players to MLB," the problem isn't players going to MLB, it the lack of knowledge of the NPB in North America.

Iguchi's play was a key part of the White Sox's 14-2 win yesterday. He has been a key player on the White Sox team this year. In my opinion he's already on the same level as Ichiro and Godzilla.

- And didn't Iguchi drive in three RBIs including a two-run homer in a 6-4 victory?

Iguchi went 0-3 in Game 1. [Game Recap - MLB.com]

People are saying that if the play didn't pan out, runners would've been on the corners with 0 outs. They're saying if Iguchi messed up, the Red Sox would've come back. It's just a bunch of east coast bias to try and make Iguchi and the White Sox look like bush league players.

Most Japanese baseball players train more in a year than most people do in a lifetime. They need to give Iguchi more credit.

I think we may have found another big strategy difference between the Majors and Nippon Professional Baseball here.

As everyone knows, there's a lot of sacrifice bunting in Pro Yakyu. With it, the Japanese defenses train hard at cutting down the lead runner whenever possible. There are many throws to second and third on sacrifice attempts. Sometimes it makes the situation worse, but more often than not, when it's attempted, the lead runner is cut down, killing a possible rally.

Iguchi pretty much knows when he can and can't get the lead runner. Millar being "stunned" by the play would get a lot of criticism here in Japan for not having his head in the game. (It's a good thing Millar didn't join Chunichi - from all I've read about Millar, Alex has proven to be a much greater asset.)

- I think we may have found another big strategy difference between the Majors and Nippon Professional Baseball here.

I think you're probably right. Having being exposed to yakyu for so long, I now expect infielders to at least think about throwing out the lead runner.

With a 6-0 lead, it was perhaps a little risky. But at least now the opposing runners will have to be more careful when they set off for third. A reputation for unpredicability won't hurt Iguchi from a tactical point of view.

Why is there always some bias excuse raised around here? What evidence do you have for East Coast bias? These are national networks, filled by national broadcasters. It's not like some Kansai or Kanto clique. They aren't some hack working for a rag like the New York Post.

Further, Iguchi's play in MLB is what counts when he plays in MLB. People assume that some reverence be given to NPB past experience. In truth, in MLB, it is very much; "What have you done for me this year?" Last season doesn't mean a whole lot. The sportscasters haven't seen a lot of Iguchi, so why not cut them some slack?

Iguchi has had an excellent season in Chicago. No one questions that.

Basically the White Sox were winning 6-0 when the Red Sox scored 2 runs in the 4th. No one was out and there was a man on second. Taguchi fielded a ground ball, and instead of throwing to first, he took a chance and threw to third. The ball short hopped, but the third baseman fielded it and tagged out the slow Kevin Millar.

I don't know if he got a lot of critcism for it, but it was a risky play. It was a turning point in the game, though. Boston never scored again.

- So Tadahito Iguchi throws Kevin Millar out at third base in a momentum changing play, and all people in the media can do is say how dumb of a play it was.

Which media are you reading? Iguchi's gutsy toss to 3rd stuns Millar [Chicago Tribine, free registration required]

- [...] the problem isn't players going to MLB, it the lack of knowledge of the NPB in North America.

It's hard for them to follow a game that they have pretty much no ability to follow. It's hard for me to follow as well. I think when/if NPB gets on TV over here people will have more understanding and knowledge of the Japanese game. Hopefully when MLB gets their TV network up and running they will air some NPB games from time to time.

Whatever happened to YES airing some Yomiuri games due to the relationship between the Yankees and Giants? That would have been perfect, but looks like they didn't go through with it.

Anyways, It wasn't "dumb" on Iguchi's part. We all know how good Iguchi is. Like somebody said earlier in the thread, he is a champion and knows what it takes to win.

Did anyone see the amazing game winning homer by Iguchi?

[by Admin: Do we need to start another thread for the play-offs? We're getting off the original topic.]

And his home run tonight is proof he's no stranger to winning titles. Super Hit Man I-GU-CHI!

BTW, of course most Chicago media won't be judging his play. I'm talking ESPN and major national media outlets.

I think Iguchi might have just quieted any criticism about him, after the come from behind/go ahead 3 run homer he hit in game 2 against Boston. In ESPN's game 2 report [found here], there's a brief note at the bottom of the page mentioning how Iguchi helped Daiei to 2 Nippon Series Championships. I'm not a White Sox fan myself, but I'm happy to see Iguchi have a quiet successful year, plus getting praise from manager Ozzie Guillen.

First of all, throwing out the runner at third was a big risk. I don't know how many of you actually saw the play, but if Crede (White Sox) third baseman didn't dig Iguchi's throw out of the dirt, the Sox would have been in big trouble. With a six run lead, the fundamentally sound play is to get the sure out at first base. However, Iguchi's play did kill the momentum of the Boston Red Sox.

In my opinion, Gold Gloves in Japan are based on the popularity of the players as well as their play in the field. I believe that Kazuo Matsui won some Gold Gloves in Japan, but he was horrible when he made the transition to the MLB. Matsui's arm was not as strong as advertised and his fundamentals when chasing down grounders was not good. Also, Hideki Matsui won some Gold Gloves in Japan and his fielding ability can be questioned at times.

Hopefully, Iguchi will continue his success in the MLB and be a strong contender for Rookie of the Year. However, the real bias that he will encounter is the typical non votes he will get since he played a number of years in Japan. This bias is what really irritates me. Hideki Matsui should have won the Rookie of the Year and, if the media has this bias against the Japanese, then they should take away all of the Rookie of the Year awards won by black players who previously played in the "Negro" leagues.

The Negro Leagues were in North America and, the injustice aside, were not considered major league. So for your thought process, NPB should not count because it is not major league. I don't think that and all of you don't either.

Sasaki and Ichiro also won the ROY. Where was the alleged bias of "the media" then?

Dude, you should read what you write. Perhaps you are being as unfair as the few sportswriters who refuse to recognize an experienced NPB player as a rookie? Personally, anyone new to MLB should be a rookie, but it's the sportswriter's award, not mine.

Even without the coastal "bias," Iguchi was going to face some stiff competition for the AL Rookie of the Year (Cano of the Yanks; Street, Swisher of Oakland; Gomes of Tampa Bay). We also have to remember that the award doesn't account for post-season play.

With that said, Iguchi was probably the best player of that series.

- The Negro Leagues were in North America and, the injustice aside, were not considered major league.

Please excuse me for the discretion on the Iguchi topic, but how are the Negro Leagues not considered major league quality? When many sportswriters and historians do consider the Negro Leagues of a equal talent level with the Major Leagues. Numerous players have come out of the Negro Leagues to play in the majors such as Jackie Robinson, Larry Doby, Hank Aaron, Ernie Banks, Willie Mays, Roy Campanella, Monte Irvin, Satchel Paige, and Don Newcombe.

Many more were barred from playing in the majors due to the color barrier such as Josh Gibson, Cool Papa Bell, Oscar Charleston, Judy Johnson, Hilton Smith, Bill Foster, Martin Dihigo, Turkey Stearnes, Leon Day, Buck Leonard, Pop Lloyd, and Willie Wells. This proves that the Negro Leagues was of a Major League quality by far with the high level of stars in the Negro Leagues and the high praise from Major League players it recieved such as from Honus Wagner, John McGraw, and Connie Mack.

- Perhaps you are being as unfair as the few sportswriters who refuse to recognize an experienced NPB player as a rookie?

The problem with the sportswriters is that too many of them have a double standard when voting for the ROY. Take 2003, there was a lot of bias with the AL ROY voting. If anyone new to MLB is a rookie then why didn't the best rookie win the ROY award (Hideki Matsui)? Matsui outhit and outplayed Angel Berroa by far that year. What we saw that year is many sportswriters not vote for Hideki Matsui because they didn't think he was a true rookie.

MLB's definition of a rookie is anyone new to the Majors. Sportswriters shouldn't be able to twist this around to fit their own opinion and beliefs.

Back to Tadahito Iguchi, he's my vote for the AL ROY. The only liable opponent to Iguchi, in my opinion, is A's closer Huston Street. Iguchi was a key plug on the White Sox's team this year, was a great fielder, and had a great year batting .278 with 15 HRs and 71 RBIs with 15S Bs. [Stats - MLB.com]

- [..] how are the Negro Leagues not considered major league quality?

No one said major league quality. They simply aren't considered an official major league.

- [...] many sportswriters and historians do consider the Negro Leagues of a equal talent level with the Major Leagues.

They do? Who has expressed this view? For them to be of equal talent, MLB would be 50% white, 50% black once integration was completed. This clearly was not the case, leading one to conclude that on average the talent level was sub-MLB. This does not rule out the fact that many HoF, All-Star and MLB starter quality players appeared in the Negro Leagues.

- Numerous players have come out of the Negro Leagues to play in the majors such as [...].

And this proves parity how? Numerous players have come out of the Pacific Coast League to play in the majors such as Joe DiMaggio, Paul Waner, Ted Williams, and Mike Piazza. Does this mean that the PCL is of the same quality as MLB?

- Many more were barred from playing in the majors due to the color barrier such as [...]. This proves that the Negro Leagues was of a Major League quality by far with the high level of stars in the Negro Leagues and the high praise from Major League players it recieved such as from [...].

Just because the stars were high quality does not mean that the Negro Leagues were equal in talent to MLB.

[...] Take 2003, there was a lot of bias with the AL ROY voting. If anyone new to MLB is a rookie then why didn't the best rookie win the ROY award (Hideki Matsui)? Matsui outhit and outplayed Angel Berroa by far that year.

No he didn't, as has been pointed out here many times previously. Matsui had an 788 OPS as a left fielder. Berroa had a 769 OPS as a shortstop. A shortstop with a 769 OPS is far more valuable than a left fielder with a 788 OPS. Voting for Berroa simply indicates that they recognized basic logic.

- What we saw that year is many sportswriters not vote for Hideki Matsui because they didn't think he was a true rookie.

Matsui was placed on at least 22 of the 28 ballots and appears to have been named on more ballots than was Berroa. In 2001, Ichiro was named on every ballot - these are the same writers, so I see no AL writers as not willing to vote for an NPB vet.

Thank you!

Voting a great like Hideki Matsui as ROY is an insult, don't you think?

Think about it.

- For them to be of equal talent, MLB would be 50% white, 50% black once integration was completed. This clearly was not the case, leading one to conclude that on average the talent level was sub-MLB.

And why was MLB not of equal talent? Because some teams were slower than others to break the color barrier like the Red Sox, their first black player (Pumpsie Green) was in 1959. MLB wasn't of equal talent distribution because of the color barrier that was there, and that was slow to be broken down. The MLB then, while great and not to take away from the achievements of the players then, was completely segregated.

- Just because the stars were high quality does not mean that the Negro Leagues were equal in talent to MLB.

This leads us back to the arguement of people who refuse to accept that there were other major leagues outside of MLB. When just not a few of the stars, but numerous of the stars were of Major League quality does tell us that the talent was of major league quality. Even numerous Major League greats and famous managers have re-stated this fact such as Honus Wagner, Connie Mack, and John McGraw.

- No he didn't, as has been pointed out here many times previously. Matsui had an 788 OPS as a left fielder. Berroa had a 769 OPS as a shortstop. A shortstop with a 769 OPS is far more valuable than a left fielder with a 788 OPS. Voting for Berroa simply indicates that they recognized basic logic.

While I'm a big believer in OPS, Berroa, on the other hand, didn't have a better season or wasn't proven to be more valuable than Matsui in 2003. Matsui's numbers and performance was more valuable than Angel Berroa.

[By admin: We're getting off topic. Matsui's case was already discussed in length. While arguments using the Negro Leagues as an example are fine, it's looking like we're trying to establish which of those arguements to accept and reject - which is really a new topic of its own (outside the scope of this site). Is it possible to draw from commonly accepted generalities from the Negro Leagues?]

You know, I am sorry I brought this up. It was beaten to death before.

Here is something of interest from Wikipedia:

[Link)

In Major League Baseball, the Rookie of the Year Award is given to the top rookie baseball player in the American and National Leagues.

Awarding began in 1947, coincidentally the year in which Jackie Robinson endured the toughest rookie year in baseball history. Fittingly, he won the award.

The award has come under scrutiny in recent years with the awarding to rookie Japanese players with prior experience in Japan. While rookies to Major League Baseball, players like Hideo Nomo, Kazuhiro Sasaki, Ichiro Suzuki, and Hideki Matsui were already tested professionals before coming to the United States. Some baseball writers questioned what the definition of rookie really is.

Currently, there is no age restriction or restriction on experience outside of the Major Leagues.

Only two players, both in the American League, have been named Rookie of the Year and MVP in the same year - Fred Lynn in 1975 and Ichiro Suzuki in 2001.

What qualifies as a rookie?

In order to qualify for the award a player must have accumulated, prior to the season under consideration:

• Fewer than 130 at bats and 50 innings pitched in the Major Leagues or
• Fewer than 45 days on the active rosters of Major League clubs (excluding DL time or any time after rosters are expanded on September first)

Based on the above, it seems to me that any NPB player qualifies. It is also interesting to note that Jackie Robinson was the first ROY and several black players were National League ROY early on. The AL was slower to integrate.

Don't be surprised if there is more grief heaped on Iguchi for throwing the ball away tonight. I saw the replay. Iguchi gamely held his ground against a Cabrera takeout play. He should have stepped aside though. I think it's a function of a style of play different from what he's accustomed to in NPB. It was clean play by Cabrera in the situation as Iguchi was blocking the bag. One commentator said Iguchi erred, but described him otherwise as a near Gold Glover.

I saw the play live last night (CET) and I thought it was a bit of an odd play by Iguchi. You can't give him an error on it, but he should've either stepped aside or jumped over Cabrera. But then again, he had to react really fast. Although The LA Angels scored the winning run because of it, I don't see how you can blame Iguchi for that run.