Day 9 - Game 1 - Saga Kita vs. Uji Yamada Shogyo
Discussion in the High School forum
Comments
Re: Day 9 - Game 1 - Saga Kita vs. Uji Yamada Shogyo
[ Author: Tokyo Sox | Posted: Aug 17, 2007 11:13 AM
| TYS Fan
]
Was it Baba that threw 270-something pitches over the course of those 2 days in row?
I worry about some of these #'s. It's certainly well known now that the Japanese approach to building and preserving arm strength is very different than the U.S. approach, and in many cases the Japanese approach has been vindicated. But it almost seems now like the cool or popular thing to do to is try to emulate Daisuke's legendary and almost superhuman efforts when he was at Koshien, and there doesn't seem to be a lot of consideration for the potential future careers of a lot of these young guys.
Yuki Saitoh threw 256 pitches in an early spring training bullpen session for Waseda in March. I don't have a real problem with that - he probably wasn't throwing 100%, and they're "low leverage" pitches, so to speak. But, for Baba (it was him right?) we're talking 2 straight days of 100+ all-out pitches in the biggest game(s) of a 17/18-year old's life? I've gotta think most guys aren't built for that.
I don't know what approach is better, and maybe we never will. But a U.S. high school coach could probably expect to get fired, sued, or both if he abused a pitcher like that and the kid ever got hurt.
I'd be interested to hear other poster's feelings about this.
I worry about some of these #'s. It's certainly well known now that the Japanese approach to building and preserving arm strength is very different than the U.S. approach, and in many cases the Japanese approach has been vindicated. But it almost seems now like the cool or popular thing to do to is try to emulate Daisuke's legendary and almost superhuman efforts when he was at Koshien, and there doesn't seem to be a lot of consideration for the potential future careers of a lot of these young guys.
Yuki Saitoh threw 256 pitches in an early spring training bullpen session for Waseda in March. I don't have a real problem with that - he probably wasn't throwing 100%, and they're "low leverage" pitches, so to speak. But, for Baba (it was him right?) we're talking 2 straight days of 100+ all-out pitches in the biggest game(s) of a 17/18-year old's life? I've gotta think most guys aren't built for that.
I don't know what approach is better, and maybe we never will. But a U.S. high school coach could probably expect to get fired, sued, or both if he abused a pitcher like that and the kid ever got hurt.
I'd be interested to hear other poster's feelings about this.
Re: Day 9 - Game 1 - Saga Kita vs. Uji Yamada Shogyo
[ Author: Shinigami | Posted: Aug 18, 2007 1:21 AM
| FSH Fan
]
Saitoh Yuuki pitched a summer Koshien record last year for pitches thrown as well as innings thrown.
They've always been doing this since the old days, not just after Matsuzaka did it in 1998. It's just something they desire to do, especially with everyone wanting the championship so bad, with a gruesome schedule as the tournament winds down to the end (playing every day).
There have been past discussions about whether this was be categorized as child abuse, but so far, there are no actions against it, and they keep throwing, throwing, and throwing.
Whether this is right or wrong it's up to what perspective one views it. But at the end of the day, with no actions preventing anything (such as a pitch count, etc.), this trend will likely go on, as it does get very exciting watching the young kids battle through immense heat in the middle of August.
They've always been doing this since the old days, not just after Matsuzaka did it in 1998. It's just something they desire to do, especially with everyone wanting the championship so bad, with a gruesome schedule as the tournament winds down to the end (playing every day).
There have been past discussions about whether this was be categorized as child abuse, but so far, there are no actions against it, and they keep throwing, throwing, and throwing.
Whether this is right or wrong it's up to what perspective one views it. But at the end of the day, with no actions preventing anything (such as a pitch count, etc.), this trend will likely go on, as it does get very exciting watching the young kids battle through immense heat in the middle of August.
Re: Day 9 - Game 1 - Saga Kita vs. Uji Yamada Shogyo
[ Author: Kamina Ayato | Posted: Aug 18, 2007 5:05 AM
| HC Fan
]
In the two day marathon for Saga Kita, Baba pitched 5 innings of the first game vs. Uji Yamada Shogyo and 6 the next day against Maebashi Shogyo.
If you're looking at an example of overuse, go back to Saitoh's Koshien run last year. He pitched to every batter except for 2 in the 9th inning of their first game. That includes 4 consecutive games, and 5 in 6 days:
Day 11 - Best 16 against Fukui Shogyo - W 7-1
Day 12 - Day off
Day 13 - Best 8 against Nihon Yamagata - W 5-2
Day 14 - Best 4 against Kagoshima Kogyo - W 5-0
Day 15 - Championship against Komadai Tomakomai - D 1-1
Day 16 - Championship against Komadai Tomakomai - W 4-3
Without knowing about how the human body works and how the pitching mechanics wear on the body, I can't really say anything about overusing the kids. They already have a year-round training regiment which may help with endurance, but could also mean early damage. And when you compare a coach in Japan to one here in the US, you have to remember the difference in culture where in Japan where clubs (especially baseball) can be treated as almost having a job. Plus, the end dream of Koshien pushes a lot of players as well. If the kid in the next town is working 24/7/365, I should be too.
I guess the real enigma goes with someone like Matsuzaka. He does a lot of things that pitchers in the US don't do, but he's still healthy. It could be a testament to his constant training, or he could just be a freak of nature.
I guess the real measure will be when these pitchers go into the majors. If there end up being more injuries for the younger pitchers, then something may need to be considered.
If you're looking at an example of overuse, go back to Saitoh's Koshien run last year. He pitched to every batter except for 2 in the 9th inning of their first game. That includes 4 consecutive games, and 5 in 6 days:
Day 11 - Best 16 against Fukui Shogyo - W 7-1
Day 12 - Day off
Day 13 - Best 8 against Nihon Yamagata - W 5-2
Day 14 - Best 4 against Kagoshima Kogyo - W 5-0
Day 15 - Championship against Komadai Tomakomai - D 1-1
Day 16 - Championship against Komadai Tomakomai - W 4-3
Without knowing about how the human body works and how the pitching mechanics wear on the body, I can't really say anything about overusing the kids. They already have a year-round training regiment which may help with endurance, but could also mean early damage. And when you compare a coach in Japan to one here in the US, you have to remember the difference in culture where in Japan where clubs (especially baseball) can be treated as almost having a job. Plus, the end dream of Koshien pushes a lot of players as well. If the kid in the next town is working 24/7/365, I should be too.
I guess the real enigma goes with someone like Matsuzaka. He does a lot of things that pitchers in the US don't do, but he's still healthy. It could be a testament to his constant training, or he could just be a freak of nature.
I guess the real measure will be when these pitchers go into the majors. If there end up being more injuries for the younger pitchers, then something may need to be considered.
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So what would happen this time around?
In a change from the first game, Uji Yamada went immediately with their ace Nakai. Saga Kita would once again start #10 Baba.
The game would start with more of the same with both pitchers keeping the batters off the base paths. But in the bottom of the 3rd, Uji Yamada would go for the early lead.
First game starter Hirao, now playing left, started with a double to right-center field. SS Kida Kohta sends Hirao along to third, then a sacrifice fly by 2B Kitagawa would plate Hirao giving them the early 1-0 lead.
Saga Kita would respond in the top of the 4th. Soejima-kun would hit a grounder to 3B Nakano, but he can't field it. Ichimaru sends him along to second. After Ohgushi flies to left, 2B Tanaka steps up to bat. On a 3-2 count, he hits one right back to the pitcher, it deflects off of him and to the third baseman, but he has no play. With runners on 1st and 3rd, Egashira chops one up the middle and it's through! Saga Kita has tied the game!
Uji Yamada gets a chance in the bottom of the 4th. With one down, Kataoka hits a nubber up the first base line. 1B Tsuji would field it, but he makes a soft toss to first allowing Kataoka to slide in safe! Kataoka would show his speed again as P Nakai rips one down the left side looking for green. But SS Ide makes the spectacular grab, and throws to second from his knees only to find that Kataoka has gotten there first! Now Uji Yamada has runners on 1st and 2nd with no outs! Nishida tries to cash in the runners, but instead he grounds to the pitcher who starts the 1-6-3 double play. And even with Kataoka at third, they can't get him in.
Saga Kita on the other hand would continue the hit parade in the 6th. Soejima would lead off the frame, and with the count 1-0, sends a grounder shooting through the left-center field gap for a double! Ichimaru looks to sacrifice him along to third. But the throw from 3B Nakano is high and everyone's safe! LF Ohgushi doesn't waste this chance, taking a 1-0 pitch over the right fielder's head scoring 2! Behind him, 2B Tanaka grounds one through the middle scoring Ohgushi. And just like that Saga Kita is up by 3.
There would be no rally this time for Uji Yamada. And after they change pitchers in the 7th, Saga Kita would add on another 4 runs on its way to a 9-1 win.