Strike! Every Weekend

What are the owners thinking? A strike would be bad for Pro Yakyu. It would alienate the fans from the game even further. Pro Yakyu already has a mainly old generation fan base. The younger kids don't really care that much about baseball anymore, be it actively or passively. A strike would make it worse. To avoid a further slide in popularity the owners had better come up with a sound plan to revive their league(s). Whether they like it or not they have to work together with the players on this one because they are in it together. It starts to sound like a marriage!

I don't understand the arrogance the owners are displaying. Of course the players are upset with the merger. It potentialy costs close to a hunderd people their jobs. Let alone the impact it has on their families. Nobody likes to lose his job. The owners should at least take that into account and show that they care by properly communicating with the players' union and providing the victims of this merger with a way out.

Having said that, I am in favour of a merger. The economics have shown that the market just doesn't support these teams. From an economic perspective it doesn't make sense to keep these clubs afloat just for the sake of keeping them in the league.

What is so bad about the one-league idea?

• It gives all the "weaker" teams their games against the Giants for much needed revenue. The Giants should realize that they have to share to survive. The bottom line is that they need opponents to be what they are.


• It would open up the opportunity for development of a good marketing plan for a "new" league with two divisions. This "newness" could be a perfect excuse to negotiate a new TV deal. The lifeline of any pro sport.


• At this point I don't see too many negatives in the one-league format provided the owners welcome new ownership. E.g. At first adding two new franchises to keep the number of teams at 12. This would mean that players losing their job in the currect merger have a shot at finding a new job with the new clubs. Then evaluate and when appropriate add another two clubs a couple of years down the road. There are enough good players in the lower regions of Pro Yakyu not to let the level of play deteriorate too much. The bonus would be that it would mean that more youngsters have a shot at becoming a pro player.

Speaking of new teams, I don't know which cities would qualify. But I am sure they can put together a commitee that could look into that matter. At first glance what is wrong with Livedoor and Shidax (in Shizuoka)?

- Pro Yakyu already has a mainly old generation fan base. The younger kids don't really care that much about baseball anymore, be it actively or passively.

What do you base this on? In my neighborhood, the kids play baseball just as they always have, the Koshien high school tournaments are still as popular as ever, and the crowds at all the pro yakyu games seem to me to be getting younger and younger, with grizzled veterans, families with young kids, teenage girls - everybody - sitting side by side in the packed bleachers. Do you have any figures to back up your assertion?

No figures to back that up. But figures are not everything. It is hard to get reliable figures. They can be doctored with, and on top of that, be misleading as well. Like stats don't tell you the whole story about a player.

It's a feeling I get. Granted, not something that is gonna hold up long. Baseball in Japan is an old generation sport. Like Sumo. These two have been so dominating as national sports in terms of popularity and TV coverage that almost automatically the only way to go for them is down. Can you imagine yakyu becoming more popular and more dominant in TV markets? It has not been a monopoly, but so far it has dominated the sports landscape in such a way that the only way for yakyu to become more popular is to allow more diversity to develop within baseball itself.

In regard to other sports: Once different sports (e.g. football [aka soccer]) pick up, more diversity will develop and cut into yakyu's fan base. Football is already more popular among youth after the WC 2002 (no figures) and "new" sports from overseas will slowly gain ground.

I agree that the management of Japanese clubs leaves room for improvement. Clubs are run by the old generation who either can't or don't want to make the switch to new marketing techniques. So this is a generational conflict. Throw the old guard out and let the young people take the helm. Japan has plenty of young execs who know how to develop and implement good marketing plans given the chance.

Well without stats I suppose it's hard to argue this objectively, but my own "feeling" is that yakyu attracts more of a cross section of society than any of the other sports, including youngsters, oldsters, and everybody in between. If you've ever been to a game at Koshien you'll know what I mean.

Can't disagree with you that soccer got a boost after the World Cup, but then it got a boost after the advent of the J-League, too, and then there was a decline. Maybe more kids are playing it than before, (same thing in the States), but the crowds at the top level are nothing to write home about.

- Having said that, I am in favour of a merger. The economics have shown that the market just doesn't support these teams. From an economic perspective it doesn't make sense to keep these clubs afloat just for the sake of keeping them in the league.

It is debatable that the economics show this at all. What they more likely show is that most of the people running Japanese baseball have no clue how to run a baseball club. Apart from one exception, the marketing of clubs and players is abysmal. The whole thrust of Livedoor's bid was that they could market the Buffaloes better, which is probably the case. Better run clubs would turn in a profit as the market is definitely there.

Unfortunately, the mess that the owners are making of things at the moment is proof that management ability is sorely lacking.

The only things the current economics show is that certain markets are saturated. With a salary cap, Japanese baseball has the ability to actually expand not contract. Let's start thinking outside the square and not in the selfish, narrow minded vein of the owners.

In another thread, I said this about any salary cap proposal:

[S]alary caps really will most serve to help the major leagues skim off the top NPB talent, as NPB teams will be hard pressed to pay those players close to the salaries they could command in MLB if the cap is low enough to solve the immediate economic issue[.]

The bottom line is that any salary cap with enough bite to resolve current economic troubles is apt to cause other problems - so a salary cap really shouldn't be looked at as a primary option to resolve the issues facing NPB.

Jim Albright

I'm not convinced by a salary cap either. The problem strikes me as a marketing/promotion one. Horie-president (Livedoor) states that he believes the fans are still there - they have just stopped spending their money on baseball. Given how the Hanshin Tigers market themselves successfully there is some strength to this view. The baseball market isn't saturated yet, and in fact, has room for expansion.

I believe very few players would be lost to MLB, most Japanese players wouldn't be everyday players in the Majors. Cultural differences, the language barrier, and lack of "MLB material" would see a small percentage make the move to the USA. E.g. I remember watching a spring training game in Florida featuring the Buffs' Nakamura trying out for LA and the commentators were just totally ridiculing his swing and stance, saying something to the effect of how much he's wasting his time even showing up here. A star in Japan, yes, but most "stars" won't cut in the the majors.

These are the "stars" who lost to the Australian "part-timers" twice at the olympics. While I love Pro Yakyu, there is a huge leap to the majors, and I still believe a salary cap will even out the competition and encourage expansion and/or the relocation of the saturated Kansai/Kanto markets.

Right now, NPB has been able to keep Nakamura, and there are others who may have stayed who would be lost with a salsry cap. Futhermore, if the players find that only MLB is going to give them the big payday, there will be more pressure to lower the free agency limits.

I agree that a salary cap isn't an immediate disaster, and, if management was more imaginative and capable (and willing to treat the players as partners rather than vassals), it might not be a disaster at all. However, this NPB management group has a unique ability to turn a silk purse into a sow's ear - and NPB doesn't need to have to deal with the kinds of issues any significant salary cap might well cause.

Jim Albright

- Cultural differences, the language barrier, and lack of "MLB material" would see a small percentage make the move to the USA [...]

- [...] and the commentators were just totally ridiculing his swing and stance, saying something to the effect of how much he's wasting his time even showing up here [...]

You are a hard act to follow. Nakamura can't play MLB because a couple of commentators say so? C'mon. I saw him play and you can tell by just watching him that he can play. I don't need a couple of commentators for that. What are they thinking? It's nothing but a display of arrogance. The man can play period. And he could play in MLB if he took up the challenge. Sure, he would have to make the adjustments. Get to know the pitchers, different style of play, etc. He could use somebody showing him the ropes.

It's a bit like the Russian and European hockey players. When they first came to North America the same was said about how they could never play in the NHL. Look at them now. Some Americans are just arrogant and ignorant beyond belief. Of course Nakamura can play MLB and don't let anybody tell you otherwise. It would take time and effort to adjust to MLB and be successful. He might even have to drop down to 3-A for a while. But if playing MLB really is his dream, like he has said, then even that shouldn't be a problem.

I am more inclined to say that his biggest problem will be the food. Like it is for most Japanese abroad. Language barrier is not that big an issue as most Japanese have a latent knowledge of English which they just have learn to activate. Get over their shyness. And who needs language when hitting the ball? You need some to get along with your teammates.

I don't like your generalizations. Please don't base your opinion on a couple of commentators. It would be nice to see you start thinking for yourself.

I agree that losing to Australia in Greece was a total shame. The Aussies showed Japan that you need a team to win. The Japanese had a bunch of good individual players. Granted, it's hard to make a team out of guys that can only get together for two weeks because their league is in the middle of its season. It takes time to construct a team. And that is exactly why it is good the Aussies showed the Japanese that. Even with all their stars they can't just come down and pick up the gold like that.

Hi Christopher. You bring up an interesting point; could I press you for a bit more information?

As a Hanshin fan, I suppose it's weird that I've never really thought about how Hanshin markets itself. I guess I just thought Hanshin fans were insanely in love with their team (with a few fair-weather fans when we won the penant). Maybe that's because Hanshin have never had to seek me out: I always look for them.

So, with that in mind, could you please expand a little on what you mean by "how the Hanshin Tigers market themselves"? I'm genuinely interested.

I tend to concur with torakichi here. I've always thought that the Tigers were simply fortunate to have a fanatical legion of fans, with the general reputation that they are "Osaka's team" (even though they play in another prefecture!). For this reason they get a lot of "free publicity" in the print media (usually front page of the sports papers) as well as on TV, SUN carrying all their games, Tigers' News programmes, etc.

From a personal observation in Osaka, I believe the Buffalo's actually spend more time and money marketing themselves, I guess, out of necessity.

Just my observation.

With pleasure, but I will attempt to be brief as a long list will be boring.

The Hanshin brand/logo can be seen all over Kansai, but particularly in Osaka. It is also available on a bewildering array of products. For example you can buy Tigers striped washlet seats and cars. Stalls and shops throughout the shopping areas sell Tigers branded goods and so do major department stores. There is even a Tiger's stall in Shinagawa Station (a major interchange) in Tokyo.

What is also interesting is that these goods are prominently displayed, not placed at the back. When you arrive at Itami (Osaka domestic airport) and leave the airport, the shop by the door has Tigers goods for sale right in front.

Player's photographs are also easily available, as are the Tiger's mascots.

Fans can access up to the minute scores and match results and Tiger's news on their mobile phones. They can watch the match in pro-Tigers izakayas (eating and drinking bars).

Another example: Last year, when the Tigers went to Australia in a specially marked plane, a model of this became available with the special markings.

Mass media wise there is the Tiger's sports paper, but also in the Kansai region, numerous Tiger related TV programmes are being constantly shown. I was in Kansai just after Kanemoto broke the record for most consecutive appearances and was able to watch the special documentary film they made about his career.

You will have noticed Hoshino's image all over Japan as well. Whilst he had a successful career with the Dragons, his current fame rests on his status as Tigers' kantoku, and this is also marketed.

I have only managed a few examples, but I hope you see what I mean.

I think all this proves is that there are many Tigers fans who like to buy Hanshin merchandise. I don't think the phenomenon is caused by the club going out of its way to market itself.

You market yourself to your target audience. Just because lots of Hanshin fans buy the products doesn't mean the marketing strategy is wrong. In this case, Hanshin markets itself to Tiger's fans and is very successful in this respect. This is where successful marketing comes in - ideally you shouldn't have to do much yourself, others market for you. The Hanshin Tigers have achieved this very successfully. The fact that companies are queuing up to create Tiger branded products shows how successful the strategy is.

Basically the Tigers have captured a whole region of Japan (Kansai) and are successfully able to sell products in other regions. The victory sales after the 2003 pennant also showed this. The Tigers didn't have to try too hard, and this is what you want as a company. They still don't have to try hard. This represents a good marketing strategy.

- They still don't have to try hard. This represents a good marketing strategy.

So you're saying that the Tigers are successful marketers because they don't have to do any marketing? Mmmm. But exactly which part of this "strategy" can be emulated by the other teams to achieve the same success? I mean, I don't think you could exactly go to the president of Kintetsu and say, "Hey, I've got a great idea to market your team! Just copy the Tigers and do no marketing at all. Let everybody else do it for you!"

I think you'd be shown the door pretty quickly.

No, the bottom line is that the Tigers are successful because they have many fans who like to buy stuff. Simple. They have the history and the tradition, and they don't need to promote themselves. I think your original point is correct, but just that the Tigers are not a good example to use. The Giants are the ones for promotional/marketing expertise.

- I don't like your generalizations. Please don't base your opinion on a couple of commentators. It would be nice to see you start thinking for yourself.

Whoa, that's a bit harsh! If you spent time reading my posts you would see that I actually do "think for myself." I respect your opinion and would appreciate a more balanced view of my posts. I was simply alluding to the fact that there is a lot of pre-existing biases against Japanese players "making it" in MLB.

I'm sorry if my post was ambiguous and indicated that I was simply mirroring what some commentator thought. My intent was to show that the transition to MLB for Japanese players was not an easy one.

- The Hanshin brand/logo can be seen all over Kansai, but particularly in Osaka. It is also available on a bewildering array of products. [...]

What is also interesting is that these goods are prominently displayed, not placed at the back. When you arrive at Itami (Osaka domestic airport) and leave the airport, the shop by the door has Tigers goods for sale right in front.

With all respect, this has nothing to do with the Tigers' club marketing. Businesses are simply profiting from one of Kansai's most famous and marketable products. It's actually a cultural thing rather than a result of successful marketing. Just an observation from someone who has lived in the area.

Where goods for sale are positioned does have a lot to do with good marketing, just as choice of product. If they are not visible you are not likely to sell as many as if they are. Part of any marketing strategy is ensuring the right kind of visibility for your goods/services.

If others are queing up to be linked with your brand then you have the opportunity to let them market it for you, ensuring that your brand gets the maximum exposure for the minimum expense.

This is not necessarily copyable, and with a successful strategy you don't want others to emulate it. If possible a company wants to corner as much of a market as it possibly can. The Tigers have achieved this and are reaping the benefits. They are in the situation of being able to operate a retention strategy. Others have to work very hard to get a share of this market, and Kintetsu is finding it too difficult.

The Giants don't actually have a good marketing strategy. You don't find Giants goods to anywhere near the same extent as Tigers goods - their main strength lies in being on TV, and even this is not enough as viewing figures are falling for Giants' matches.

If anyone wants to discuss further I think we should move this topic to Open Talk as we seem to have drifted off the subject of the strike and must be trying our host's patience.

Well we could move it to Open Talk if you like. Michael what do you think?

Anyway, just a few comments on your specific points:

- Where goods for sale are positioned does have a lot to do with good marketing, just as choice of product. If they are not visible you are not likely to sell as many as if they are. Part of any marketing strategy is ensuring the right kind of visibility for your goods/services.

But the Tigers have no control over where goods are sold or where they're positioned (apart from their own store in Umeda) - that's up to the individual vendors. As far as choice of product is concerned, as you rightly pointed out earlier, the Tigers approve many licensed products, from expensive suits to cheap trinkets. Too many products perhaps. In fact I know a couple of the licensees and they're always complaining that the Tigers saturate the market with too much stuff, and that it's becoming harder to make any money. So that suggests the club may be overreaching themselves.

- If others are queing up to be linked with your brand then you have the opportunity to let them market it for you, ensuring that your brand gets the maximum exposure for the minimum expense.

Of course. And that's what the Tigers do.

- This is not necessarily copyable, and with a successful strategy you don't want others to emulate it. If possible a company wants to corner as much of a market as it possibly can. The Tigers have achieved this and are reaping the benefits. They are in the situation of being able to operate a retention strategy. Others have to work very hard to get a share of this market, and Kintetsu is finding it too difficult.

But the implication in your original post was that the Buffaloes (or any new team) should look to the Tigers as a good example to emulate. And that's what I disagreed with because the Tigers' position is unique and is not copyable. Yes, the Tigers have cornered the market in Kansai, and yes the others are finding it too difficult to compete. That's my whole point. You're the one saying it's doable.

- The Giants don't actually have a good marketing strategy. You don't find Giants goods to anywhere near the same extent as Tigers goods - their main strength lies in being on TV, and even this is not enough as viewing figures are falling for Giants' matches.

I don't agree. They are masters at promotion. I'm talking about their overall marketing stategy here, not just the merchandise. They use their media empire to good effect, and they have promoted themselves since the 1950s and '60s as Japan's team, not just Tokyo's. Sometimes they're a little too slick for their own good, but they are excellent at marketing and promotion.

[From Michael: I thought you both pretty much covered all that could be, but you keep surprising me with more. ]

- But the Tigers have no control over where goods are sold or where they're positioned (apart from their own store in Umeda) - that's up to the individual vendors. As far as choice of product is concerned, as you rightly pointed out earlier, the Tigers approve many licensed products, from expensive suits to cheap trinkets. Too many products perhaps. In fact I know a couple of the licensees and they're always complaining that the Tigers saturate the market with too much stuff, and that it's becoming harder to make any money. So that suggests the club may be overreaching themselves.

If you sign a marketing agreement with someone it should contain where your goods are to be positioned within the store/outlet. Furthermore, before you chose a licensee, you investigate where they intend to sell your brand. Having done lots of these if you make a proper agreement you specify location to your licencees.

You may be right about Tigers over-reaching themselves though - the problem with a successful strategy is when to stop.

- But the implication in your original post was that the Buffaloes (or any new team) should look to the Tigers as a good example to emulate. And that's what I disagreed with because the Tigers' position is unique and is not copyable. Yes, the Tigers have cornered the market in Kansai, and yes the others are finding it too difficult to compete. That's my whole point. You're the one saying it's doable.

I don't think I actually implied that at all - all I had said was that the Tigers were the only club with a successful marketing strategy. If other baseball clubs want to emulate it they either need to go head to head with the Tigers (in Kansai) and spend a lot of money on what will certainly be an expensive and ultimately futile battle, or they have to find a different region to set up a similar strategy. The strategy can be emulated by others but not in Kansai.

- I don't agree. They are masters at promotion. I'm talking about their overall marketing stategy here, not just the merchandise. They use their media empire to good effect, and they have promoted themselves since the 1950s and '60s as Japan's team, not just Tokyo's. Sometimes they're a little too slick for their own good, but they are excellent at marketing and promotion.

The Giants certainly are excellent at promotion, but this is only part of a marketing strategy, and with marketing they actually do very little. I don't believe they are seen as the team for Japan and most Japanese I speak to (non-Giants fans) actually hate them for their arrogance and manipulation of the system to their advantage. Anyone but the Giants seems to be a common refrain and this is not the attitude towards other clubs. A successful marketing strategy has two purposes, one to expand your brand in the market and through that increase market share, and another to set up barriers to entry. The Giants' market share is begining to decline (but given where it started from has a long way to go) and they have not set up the same barriers to entry that the Tigers have in Osaka/Kansai.

Other baseball clubs are not marketing themselves on this regional basis even though several of them have the opportunity. This is because they are seen only as a promotional device for the parent company. Where Hanshin have got it correct is to market the baseball club as an entity in its own right, while the Giants are still an adjunct to the Yomiuri Group.

- If you sign a marketing agreement with someone it should contain where your goods are to be positioned within the store/outlet. Furthermore, before you chose a licensee, you investigate where they intend to sell your brand. Having done lots of these if you make a proper agreement you specify location to your licencees.

Ah yes, maybe it should, but we're talking about Osaka, which has had a laissez faire tradition that long predates the term itself. I believe that most restrictions are imposed at the production stage (I know there are rules regarding quantities and specs) but unless the Hanshin Department Store commissions an item, thus retaining exclusive selling rights, they don't apply too many restrictions on where or how the items are sold at the retail level. And that's the reason why virtually every second store in Kansai manages to get hold of Tiger branded products.

Now, you described this phenonomen in your first post and you said that this demonstrates a good marketing strategy on the part of the Tigers. I'm prepared to accept that this laissez faire approach works, but the reason it works is that there are many fans who buy Tigers stuff and not because the Tigers are necessarily good at marketing!

* Me: But the implication in your original post was that the Buffaloes (or any new team) should look to the Tigers as a good example to emulate.

- You: I don't think I actually implied that at all - all I had said was that the Tigers were the only club with a successful marketing strategy. If other baseball clubs want to emulate it they either need to go head to head with the Tigers (in Kansai) and spend a lot of money on what will certainly be an expensive and ultimately futile battle, or they have to find a different region to set up a similar strategy. The strategy can be emulated by others but not in Kansai.

Well that was the impression I received. Let me quote your actual words:

- The problem strikes me as a marketing/promotion one. Horie-president (Livedoor) states that he believes the fans are still there - they have just stopped spending their money on baseball. Given how the Hanshin Tigers market themselves successfully there is some strength to this view. The baseball market isn't saturated yet, and in fact, has room for expansion.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Horie wanted to buy the Buffaloes and keep them in Osaka. In that case he would have to go head to head against the Tigers. You are clearly saying that as the Tigers market themselves successfully, then there's hope for the Buffaloes as long as they market themselves better than they're doing at the moment. Are you now saying they can only do this if they relocate? I'm sorry, but I just want to pin you down on this point if I may. What exactly do the Buffaloes need to do to compete? We seem to be in agreement that they won't win a head to head battle with Hanshin, but if they are to remain in Osaka, how do they do it?

- Where Hanshin have got it correct is to market the baseball club as an entity in its own right, while the Giants are still an adjunct to the Yomiuri Group

No, no no. The Hanshin Tigers don't stand alone - they're just one part of the Hanshin Railways group, which also includes a department store (plus Koshien Stadium). All parts of the group complement one another, and in this respect, the group operates in much the same way as Yomiuri. They just happen to be in different sectors. The Yomiuri Giants are used to selling newspapers and attracting TV viewers; the media outlets in turn help to promote the baseball team. It's no different in the case of the Tigers. The fans shop at the department store, catch the train to Koshien and watch the baseball team play; the baseball team because it is immensely popular helps to promote the department store. And I would even posit that for some Hanshin executives, the baseball team serves as little more than a source of revenue for the railway operations.

Look, I don't doubt your knowledge of the marketing field (you certainly seem to know all the jargon), but I've been living here in Nishinomiya for a fair while and I have a close association with a number of people who work with the Hanshin organization. I believe I have a fair idea of what makes the process tick. Last year was a wild year with even more merchandise out there because of the breaking of the 18-year pennant drought, so I think you've got to take that into account before jumping to the conclusion that Hanshin is good at marketing.

You are wrong to assert that the Tigers have themselves set up "barriers to entry." Yes, the Tigers are the dominant team in Kansai, but this is not due to any particular marketing strategy on their part (at least not in recent years). As the oldest team in the region, they've always been dominant, with a loyal fan base that sticks with them through thick and thin. And it's not even an exaggeration to say that the club forms an important part of the culture of the region.

Anyway, the Tigers' bandwagon can be lucrative if you can get on it. What you described was simply everybody trying to hitch a ride.

- "The Yomiuri Giants are used to selling newspapers and attracting TV viewers [...]"

This should read: "The Yomiuri Giants are used (as in utilized) to sell newspapers and attract TV viewers [...]"

And of course Live Door's president is Horiuchi, not Horie.

[From editor: The first one was my fault. Sorry for the mis-reading. And I should have caught the second one.]

- Ah yes, maybe it should, but we're talking about Osaka, which has had a laissez faire tradition that long predates the term itself. I believe that most restrictions are imposed at the production stage (I know there are rules regarding quantities and specs) but unless the Hanshin Department Store commissions an item, thus retaining exclusive selling rights, they don't apply too many restrictions on where or how the items are sold at the retail level. And that's the reason why virtually every second store in Kansai manages to get hold of Tiger branded products.

My understanding was that it was the Tigers themselves who approved Tigers branded products. But even if it isn't, then the people who do show an excellent eye for what will sell.

I think we're talking at cross purposes here - there are many fans who buy Tigers stuff but they do so because the marketing strategy is effective. If a popular sports organisation is not effective in marketing then the vacuum tends to be filled by black market dealers. Fans want products to do with their team. Recognising this and meeting the demand is an excellent strategy.

Furthermore, you can drive demand by licensing products you think fans will like. Why do you think the bats the fans use are different colours and different sizes? Someone has realized that they will sell and that offering different bats will appeal to the fans.

- Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Horie wanted to buy the Buffaloes and keep them in Osaka. In that case he would have to go head to head against the Tigers. You are clearly saying that as the Tigers market themselves successfully, then there's hope for the Buffaloes as long as they market themselves better than they're doing at the moment. Are you now saying they can only do this if they relocate? I'm sorry, but I just want to pin you down on this point if I may. What exactly do the Buffaloes need to do to compete? We seem to be in agreement that they won't win a head to head battle with Hanshin, but if they are to remain in Osaka, how do they do it?

Horie-san was talking about the baseball market in Japan in general and that is what my original remark referred to. I should have made it clearer that I was not referring just to Osaka but to the baseball market throughout Japan. Sorry.

- No, no no. The Hanshin Tigers don't stand alone - they're just one part of the Hanshin Railways group, which also includes a department store (plus Koshien Stadium).

What I was referring to was how the club is marketed, not the actual situation. The baseball club does bring great benefits to the Hanshin group but is seen as independent to a degree the Giants are not. Who really believes that Nabetsune has severed his links with the Giants?

- You are wrong to assert that the Tigers have themselves set up "barriers to entry." Yes, the Tigers are the dominant team in Kansai, but this is not due to any particular marketing strategy on their part (at least not in recent years).

You have to ask, why are the other teams in the region struggling? If the Tigers had no marketing strategy, what passes for the other teams' strategy would succeed. In business holding onto a market against new competition is difficult. Most companies lose share, but the Tigers haven't. This is indicative that they have an effective strategy. Furthermore the barriers are there - the other teams cannot dent the Tigers' popularity. Certainly the Tigers fans are dedicated, but retaining that dedication is difficult, especially when you do not play well.

- Anyway, the Tigers' bandwagon can be lucrative if you can get on it.

Agreed - however, as I mentioned before, if you are getting people asking you to do your marketing for you then you are succeeding. You chose what products and what you want your brand to be associated with, thus reinforcing the image you want to create. Last year was, as you say, a freak year. But this also demonstrates a marketing savvy organisation as they were able to take advantage of the windfall. The Tigers also excluded any of the rival teams and their respective parent organisations from benefiting from this bonanza.

Christopher, this has been an interesting discussion, but I think we'll have to agree to disagree.

Anyway, just to check whether I was on the right track, I spoke with one of my associates who is a Hanshin licensee. I won't tell you the product he manufactures because it will give his identity away, but he has a very close relationship with the Tigers and the guys at Hanshin Department Store, and he knows what he's talking about.

His view was that basically most of the teams market themselves in much the same way, and that the only significant difference was that the Tigers have kept their brand essentially intact from the establishment of the franchise. The logo, colors, even official fight song have not changed since the 1930s, and the uniform has undergone very slight changes over the past couple of decades. This strategy of preserving the brand image seems to have worked in highlighting the history and tradition of the club, and thus, retaining the loyal fan base. So I would concede that, insofar as this is a marketing strategy, the Tigers are on to a good thing.

But in terms of day-to-day promotion/marketing, although my associate thought the Tigers did a reasonable job, he didn't feel that they were the best, and he thought that the Giants were probably better. He thought that the secret of Hanshin's marketing success basically came down to the fans who buy the merchandise and go to the games, and not really anything that the Tigers did especially well themselves.

As far as the licensing contracts are concerned, he said that, yes, the contract is signed with the Tigers, but that it's important to maintain a good relationship with the people at the department store, too. And the situation is essentially how I described it - there is a strict approval process, and the contract usually stipulates quantities, designs, colors, and the rest, but that there's really no restriction on how or where the items are to be sold (other than a ban on international sales).

However, if you upset the department store by being too aggressive in selling the item in rival stores, for example, then you may find yourself shut out when the time comes to renew the contract. So although marketing restrictions are not stipulated, there's a lot that's tacitly understood. And as with Japanese society in general, the best approach is to maintain a good relationship with the important people in the organization.

I won't comment on any more of your assertions, as there are too many holes in your arguments to fill, but the following example highlights your basic misunderstanding of the nature of the Hanshin Tigers in Kansai. You said:

- Certainly the Tigers fans are dedicated, but retaining that dedication is difficult, especially when you do not play well.

But this is exactly what the Tigers have managed to do! Especially in the late 1990s, 2000 and 2001. The Tigers have languished in the cellar for most of the last decade, but the fans stayed loyal, and they kept coming to the games. And it wasn't difficult for the club to keep them at all.

Yes, I have very much enjoyed the discussion, and the information from your friend was very informative. I have tried to keep my posts short. This is difficult when talking about marketing, but then they would have been too long for the forum and that is possibly why they might seem to you to have had a lot of holes.

If I may clarify one final point: the fact that the Tigers have retained their fans shows how effective their marketing is (be it product marketing, brand loyalty, or retention marketing). Most poorly performing sports organisations can retain a hardcore of fans who will stick with them through thick or thin. However, this tends to be very small. It is always easy for the winners but difficult for the losers. The level of support that the Tigers have been able to retain is what is so impressive. This is indicative of a very well constructed strategy. I think what you call fan loyalty I call brand loyalty, and it is actually both.

The argument here, to me, sounds like, "What came first, the chicken or the egg?" Did the Tigers' popularity come first? Or are they popular because of the marketing Hanshin has done? Someone should go back and look at the history of the team and see how the popularity of the team has evolved.

Anyway, one thing I can say for sure is that Sun TV shows all (at least most) home games from start to finish. If Hanshin is behind making that happen, I would say that is one of the most significant forms of marketing.

- Anyway, one thing I can say for sure is that Sun TV shows all (at least most) home games from start to finish. If Hanshin is behind making that happen, I would say that is one of the most significant forms of marketing.

Yes, a good point. It's a fine example of how the Tigers don't have to promote themselves. As far as I know, SUN has no official affiliation with the Tigers, but they carry most of the Tigers' home games because they are guaranteed to attract viewers. It's a bare bones telecast, nothing fancy, unlike the glitzy junk you see on YTV [NTV in the Kanto area]. But it's popular, and I would expect that it provides a significant revenue stream for the station.

<digression>
Any TV station that shows re-runs of Knight Rider and Kojak in this day and age is cool if you ask me. Alas, both series have finished on Sun TV, but it does lead me to one question: if Sun TV can only afford to run overseas programmes from the 1970s and 80s, how can they afford to show baseball games in their entirety without all the obtrusive advertising unlike the other channels? Could it be because they spend all their money on the Hanshin Tigers' games that they can only otherwise afford to show informercials?
</digression>

It looks like the strike is more likely to happen now. After the team officials told the players that a freeze on the merger was impossible, the NPB looks like it will go on strike for its first time. The owners just don't seem to want to come to a realistic solution. They need to allow Livedoor and Rakuten to enter the league. [Link - Japan Times]