August 16th Shimoyanagi v Takahashi - Brazell wins the game
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Re: August 16th Shimoyanagi v Takahashi - Brazell wins the game
[ Author: Jbroks86 | Posted: Aug 16, 2009 9:29 PM
| SFT Fan
]
Christopher, I was wondering if you have heard anymore news on Hanshin and their interest in Hideki Matsui. I knew they sent representatives to the U.S. to watch him at Yankee Stadium. Do you think if he becomes a free agent that the Tigers would deeply pursue him as a free agent, considering the marketing value and power bat he could be?
Also, another question could you see Hanshin naming Valentine manager of the Tigers in 2010, or is that out of the question? Hanshin this year has been a disappointment and Valentine is the kind of guy who can turn teams around as he did with Chiba Lotte, not one, but twice.
Also, another question could you see Hanshin naming Valentine manager of the Tigers in 2010, or is that out of the question? Hanshin this year has been a disappointment and Valentine is the kind of guy who can turn teams around as he did with Chiba Lotte, not one, but twice.
Re: August 16th Shimoyanagi v Takahashi - Brazell wins the game
[ Author: Christopher | Posted: Aug 17, 2009 3:58 PM
| HAN Fan
]
There has been nothing recently and no news on the discussions that Hanshin's president had with Matsui. I would say that Tigers would be very keen to pursue Matsui if he doesn't receive an offer from another MLB team given that he could prove a useful replacement for Kanemoto and as you mention the enormous marketing value. The one caution the Tigers must have in the backs of their mind is whether he turns out to be another Kiyohara - unable to play often because of injury.
I don' think we will be seeing Valentine as Tigers manager though. The Tigers fans don't really like him and Tigers do not have a policy of hiring hire foreign managers and have only ever hired one and that was back in 1979. They have been in touch with Itoh and Yamada already but are most likely liable to stick with Mayumi. Valentine rubs too many backs up the wrong way for him to get on in the Tigers organisation.
I don' think we will be seeing Valentine as Tigers manager though. The Tigers fans don't really like him and Tigers do not have a policy of hiring hire foreign managers and have only ever hired one and that was back in 1979. They have been in touch with Itoh and Yamada already but are most likely liable to stick with Mayumi. Valentine rubs too many backs up the wrong way for him to get on in the Tigers organisation.
Re: August 16th Shimoyanagi v Takahashi - Brazell wins the game
[ Author: Jbroks86 | Posted: Aug 18, 2009 2:05 PM
| SFT Fan
]
Yeah, I agree Matsui would be a huge marketing success for the team and his bat so far this year so far has so no signs of slowing down. Though, Hanshin would have to open a position up for him(?) and like you say the Kiyohara injury risk is there also which is something to figure into the equation.
As for why I brought up Valentine, I doubted the Tigers had much interest in Valentine as he rubs some the wrong way in NPB, I'm not sure how Hanshin management feels on Valentine's ideas for NPB though I think it would have to be right up there with Yomiuri's opinion of Valentine, maybe you can share more information on that subject?
There's only one foreign manager in Hanshin history and if I'm right that was Don Blasingame, who though if I remember did win even the respect of Katsuya Nomura. Though, if I remember right Blasingame did help set the team in motion for them to win in 1985. My point is NPB needs someone like Valentine to help it give it many needed new perspectives and one of the teams I could think could afford him would be Hanshin, but they look like they got their corners covered. My guess if he wants to stay it will be with Yokohama or Orix.
As for why I brought up Valentine, I doubted the Tigers had much interest in Valentine as he rubs some the wrong way in NPB, I'm not sure how Hanshin management feels on Valentine's ideas for NPB though I think it would have to be right up there with Yomiuri's opinion of Valentine, maybe you can share more information on that subject?
There's only one foreign manager in Hanshin history and if I'm right that was Don Blasingame, who though if I remember did win even the respect of Katsuya Nomura. Though, if I remember right Blasingame did help set the team in motion for them to win in 1985. My point is NPB needs someone like Valentine to help it give it many needed new perspectives and one of the teams I could think could afford him would be Hanshin, but they look like they got their corners covered. My guess if he wants to stay it will be with Yokohama or Orix.
Re: August 16th Shimoyanagi v Takahashi - Brazell wins the game
[ Author: Christopher | Posted: Aug 18, 2009 5:42 PM
| HAN Fan
]
Matsui would be either left or first I would suspect with the latter being the more likely position. If Brazell is mobile enough he could be spun over to right as I can see Tigers wanting to keep him. Interestingly today's Daily Sports led with an article on Kim Tae Kyun (WBC Korean team No.4 batter) whom Tigers were interested in earlier in the season. This generally means that Tigers are talking to the player with a view to signing him. Here, too marketing considerations play a big part in the considerations. He would also be a useful fallback if Matsui doesn't make the move and considerably cheaper.
If the owner of Tigers had still been Miyazaki-san (Hanshin group general counsel) then the Tigers management would have been more amenable to the ideas of Valentine. However, the current management is a bit more conservative and I don't think we could expect them to push for Valentines ideas in the same way. They also have to follow the lead of Hankyu who are the ultimate owners and are not particularly interested in shaking up the status quo. The thing is, at the moment, the Tigers business model works and generates lots of cash. Shaking up the whole structure wouldn't necessarily be in the interest of the company and wouldn't really be welcome.
Yes the Tigers one foreign manager was Blasingame though I'm not sure that you could assign that much influence on the 1985 victory to him. He did leave in 1980 and I would say that Motoh Andoh was the bigger factor in developing the team and he did bring Bass over as well.
If the owner of Tigers had still been Miyazaki-san (Hanshin group general counsel) then the Tigers management would have been more amenable to the ideas of Valentine. However, the current management is a bit more conservative and I don't think we could expect them to push for Valentines ideas in the same way. They also have to follow the lead of Hankyu who are the ultimate owners and are not particularly interested in shaking up the status quo. The thing is, at the moment, the Tigers business model works and generates lots of cash. Shaking up the whole structure wouldn't necessarily be in the interest of the company and wouldn't really be welcome.
Yes the Tigers one foreign manager was Blasingame though I'm not sure that you could assign that much influence on the 1985 victory to him. He did leave in 1980 and I would say that Motoh Andoh was the bigger factor in developing the team and he did bring Bass over as well.
Re: August 16th Shimoyanagi v Takahashi - Brazell wins the game
[ Author: Jbroks86 | Posted: Aug 18, 2009 10:19 PM
| SFT Fan
]
Yeah, I forgot that Hankyu are the ultimate owners in this thing, though Valentine himself has a track record of turning bad teams around which you think would be enough for Hanshin to roll the dice, though I guess they dont want to upset the status quo either?
As for Blasinggame, I'm not the only one who thinks he made a difference on the 1985 team, Gary Garland has a nice article on Blasinggame.
Putting all this talk aside now on Valentine and Hanshin, Christopher, what is your opinion on Bobby Valentine? Do you agree that he has done good for the league in NPB? Or is a standoffish showoff? Valentine turned around a Chiba Lotte team not once, but twice. There has to be one team in NPB that can use him even if it isn't the Hanshin Tigers, though Valentine could clean house there as he has in the past and would have more financial resources than Orix or Yokohama.
As for Hideki Matsui, if the money comes and he wants to play for Hanshin. The Tigers will bend over backwards to find a position for Matsui. The power bat and the marketing value alone would be enough to do so. I enjoy these little talks, Christopher, you've been very helpful with your opinion.
As for Blasinggame, I'm not the only one who thinks he made a difference on the 1985 team, Gary Garland has a nice article on Blasinggame.
Putting all this talk aside now on Valentine and Hanshin, Christopher, what is your opinion on Bobby Valentine? Do you agree that he has done good for the league in NPB? Or is a standoffish showoff? Valentine turned around a Chiba Lotte team not once, but twice. There has to be one team in NPB that can use him even if it isn't the Hanshin Tigers, though Valentine could clean house there as he has in the past and would have more financial resources than Orix or Yokohama.
As for Hideki Matsui, if the money comes and he wants to play for Hanshin. The Tigers will bend over backwards to find a position for Matsui. The power bat and the marketing value alone would be enough to do so. I enjoy these little talks, Christopher, you've been very helpful with your opinion.
Re: August 16th Shimoyanagi v Takahashi - Brazell wins the game
[ Author: ht_fan | Posted: Aug 18, 2009 10:29 PM
| HAN Fan
]
> Matsui would be either left or first I would suspect
> with the latter being the more likely position. If
> Brazell is mobile enough he could be spun over to
> right as I can see Tigers wanting to keep him.
Nice to hear that we may keep him!!! ^__^
Though I doubt he could actually play in the outfield, he doesn't look to have the required mobility imho...he looks pretty stiff when baserunning..../._.\
> with the latter being the more likely position. If
> Brazell is mobile enough he could be spun over to
> right as I can see Tigers wanting to keep him.
Nice to hear that we may keep him!!! ^__^
Though I doubt he could actually play in the outfield, he doesn't look to have the required mobility imho...he looks pretty stiff when baserunning..../._.\
Re: August 16th Shimoyanagi v Takahashi - Brazell wins the game
[ Author: Guest: N26 | Posted: Aug 18, 2009 11:43 PM
]
I believe Valentine is completely out of the question for Hanshin. The only teams I can think of Bobby V managing next year if he agrees to take a gigantic pay cut is Orix or Hiroshima. Not Yokohama since they just got a new home grown manager. Tashiro.
Kanemoto is getting old and is expensive, I'm sure Matsui will not be a cheap player either. The question would be would Hanshin want to spend that much money for 2 aging stars? Hanshin plays for a sell out crowd with or without the 2 players to begin with. Kanemoto is not doing too greatly but as long as he got the streak going he woun't get benched. I'm sure Matsui can have a positive impact on the line up if he stays healthy. We could see Matsui in right field maybe? If so, Hanshin will have a very old out field and not a very good one in terms of defense. If Matsui returns to Japan, he'd be better as a DH in the Pacific, that is, if he wants to do that.
I don't see Mayumi being replaced next season unless Hanshin ends in last place. Hanshin will probably strengthen their team next season very possible with Matsui or try to lure some big FAs.
I'm curious to when or if ever Kakefu who is the great Hanshin legend will ever manage Hanshin? Kakefu got that "Nagashima flare" over him. The same with Egawa, will he ever manage the Giants or some team? I think both of them have good personalities and should be given a shot.
Kanemoto is getting old and is expensive, I'm sure Matsui will not be a cheap player either. The question would be would Hanshin want to spend that much money for 2 aging stars? Hanshin plays for a sell out crowd with or without the 2 players to begin with. Kanemoto is not doing too greatly but as long as he got the streak going he woun't get benched. I'm sure Matsui can have a positive impact on the line up if he stays healthy. We could see Matsui in right field maybe? If so, Hanshin will have a very old out field and not a very good one in terms of defense. If Matsui returns to Japan, he'd be better as a DH in the Pacific, that is, if he wants to do that.
I don't see Mayumi being replaced next season unless Hanshin ends in last place. Hanshin will probably strengthen their team next season very possible with Matsui or try to lure some big FAs.
I'm curious to when or if ever Kakefu who is the great Hanshin legend will ever manage Hanshin? Kakefu got that "Nagashima flare" over him. The same with Egawa, will he ever manage the Giants or some team? I think both of them have good personalities and should be given a shot.
Re: August 16th Shimoyanagi v Takahashi - Brazell wins the game
[ Author: Jbroks86 | Posted: Aug 19, 2009 9:02 AM
| SFT Fan
]
Yeah, but N26, your forgetting the huge marketing value that Hideki Matsui can give to the Hanshin parent company. Yes, Kanemoto is popular, but he isn't the big name that Hideki Matsui is. You put his face on stuff, you will see results.
Also, from what I heard Matsui doesn't want to return to Yomiuri(so that's strike 1), Matsui has made references he like to play with Hanshin, and I don't think many PL teams be able to compete with Hanshin financial wise for Matsui. As for Matsui, if they got him trust me Hanshin find a spot for him.
As for Valentine, I didn't really post with the intention of suggesting that Hanshin manage him, because with the exception of Don Blasingame, they've never went with a foreign manager, but with the new ownership and such Valentine's ideas would not mesh well with Hanshin ownership. Though he would be the right man to turn around a losing team, even you N26 have to admit he turned around what was two sad Chiba Lotte teams that he acquired when becoming manager both times. This is much is sure, Valentine knows how to win and cares about the game in NPB, and I'm not so convinced that Mayumi is the type of guy willing to challenge the NPB status quo. Though with new ownership(Hankyu) there's is no possibility Valentine will ever manage there, but like I said N26 he knows how to win games, even if the establishment doesn't like him.
Also, from what I heard Matsui doesn't want to return to Yomiuri(so that's strike 1), Matsui has made references he like to play with Hanshin, and I don't think many PL teams be able to compete with Hanshin financial wise for Matsui. As for Matsui, if they got him trust me Hanshin find a spot for him.
As for Valentine, I didn't really post with the intention of suggesting that Hanshin manage him, because with the exception of Don Blasingame, they've never went with a foreign manager, but with the new ownership and such Valentine's ideas would not mesh well with Hanshin ownership. Though he would be the right man to turn around a losing team, even you N26 have to admit he turned around what was two sad Chiba Lotte teams that he acquired when becoming manager both times. This is much is sure, Valentine knows how to win and cares about the game in NPB, and I'm not so convinced that Mayumi is the type of guy willing to challenge the NPB status quo. Though with new ownership(Hankyu) there's is no possibility Valentine will ever manage there, but like I said N26 he knows how to win games, even if the establishment doesn't like him.
Re: August 16th Shimoyanagi v Takahashi - Brazell wins the game
[ Author: Guest: N26 | Posted: Aug 19, 2009 11:48 AM
]
Not that I want to talk too much about Lotte on Christopher's very nice blog which is a Hanshin blog. I do like Valentine. I think it is sad that he is leaving Lotte, then again, I think he is over priced. He is making 10 times more than Brown in Hiroshima. This year, while I put lots of blame at the front office, Valentine is also to be held responsible for the weak results this year. It's been an ugly season for Lotte. Rule number one in any type of business is to get along with your superiors. Valentine seems to not always be able to do just that. While he holds many remarkable qualities. This is his weakness.
Managers who do well in my book is Nahida, Ochiai and Hara. If you go further back, Nomura, Mori, Fujita. These are managers who have been winning a lot. More so than Bobby V but is no where as exciting and fun as he is. Nomura is also extreme in my book but a different type of extreme.
Kanemoto is huge. A living legend among Hanshin fans but yes, I agree with you that Matsui is more popular than Aniki. Matsui was a Hanshin fan as a child, so seeing him playing for Hanshin would be cool. He wants to play for a team who doesn't play on astro turf which then makes it either Hiroshima or Hanshin. Hiroshima probably can't afford him though it would be nice to see Matsui play for them too.
Managers who do well in my book is Nahida, Ochiai and Hara. If you go further back, Nomura, Mori, Fujita. These are managers who have been winning a lot. More so than Bobby V but is no where as exciting and fun as he is. Nomura is also extreme in my book but a different type of extreme.
Kanemoto is huge. A living legend among Hanshin fans but yes, I agree with you that Matsui is more popular than Aniki. Matsui was a Hanshin fan as a child, so seeing him playing for Hanshin would be cool. He wants to play for a team who doesn't play on astro turf which then makes it either Hiroshima or Hanshin. Hiroshima probably can't afford him though it would be nice to see Matsui play for them too.
Re: August 16th Shimoyanagi v Takahashi - Brazell wins the game
[ Author: Christopher | Posted: Aug 19, 2009 2:55 PM
| HAN Fan
]
Valentine is not as good a manager as Ochiai who is probably the best manager in Japan today. He also exhibits a desire to be a celebrity which is where his problems with the ownership arise. He comments far too frequently and loudly which is not really the Japanese way. One sees the gaijin coming over and telling the Japanese how to run their game syndrome here. He may well be right but his way of articulating his message is guaranteed to create problems. Tigers do need a strong character as manager but not a Valentine type (in fact Ochiai would be ideal for Tigers). Furthermore, could Valentine handle the fan pressure at Koshien. Valentine has had an easy ride with Marines but Tigers fans do not allow that luxury and there was his statement at Koshien that Marines fans were the best in the world. Personally, I find Valentine a bit false, his management ability I acknowledge but I think that his statements and opinions often lack sincerity and that is something that he would need to manage at Tigers.
Kakefu was considered as a candidate for the position of manager before Mayumi was appointed and was in fact the fans favourite for the position. The latter's willingness to work with Kido is rumoured to have gotten him the nod as Kakefu was apparently not interested in this set up. Matsui will be expensive but will bring a massive amount of money in merchandising and TV rights. Advertisers and TV channels will queue up to spend on Tigers games. This is a given and would be very lucrative. If Matsui can stay fit and healthy and give the Tigers around five years the investment will have paid off. But of course, this depends on Matsui not staying in MLB and remember this is his stated wish.
John - it's nice to have you back and your comments have been missed. I do not see Tigers in a crisis at the moment though. We have a poor manager and coaching team but still have a very able and strong team. Certain elements are getting old but pitching and catching do have the replacements already to hand and just need to be used. The only area we lack is a replacement for Kanemoto and if Matsui does join Tigers that is taken care of.
Kakefu was considered as a candidate for the position of manager before Mayumi was appointed and was in fact the fans favourite for the position. The latter's willingness to work with Kido is rumoured to have gotten him the nod as Kakefu was apparently not interested in this set up. Matsui will be expensive but will bring a massive amount of money in merchandising and TV rights. Advertisers and TV channels will queue up to spend on Tigers games. This is a given and would be very lucrative. If Matsui can stay fit and healthy and give the Tigers around five years the investment will have paid off. But of course, this depends on Matsui not staying in MLB and remember this is his stated wish.
John - it's nice to have you back and your comments have been missed. I do not see Tigers in a crisis at the moment though. We have a poor manager and coaching team but still have a very able and strong team. Certain elements are getting old but pitching and catching do have the replacements already to hand and just need to be used. The only area we lack is a replacement for Kanemoto and if Matsui does join Tigers that is taken care of.
Re: August 16th Shimoyanagi v Takahashi - Brazell wins the game
[ Author: Guest: JC | Posted: Aug 21, 2009 10:57 AM
]
"Furthermore, could Valentine handle the fan pressure at Koshien.
In short, yes. He managed in New York and handled the pressure well. He loves the big stage. Outside of Boston, I can't think of a tougher place to play/manage.
In short, yes. He managed in New York and handled the pressure well. He loves the big stage. Outside of Boston, I can't think of a tougher place to play/manage.
Re: August 16th Shimoyanagi v Takahashi - Brazell wins the game
[ Author: Christopher | Posted: Aug 21, 2009 1:15 PM
| HAN Fan
]
I am not so convinced. Certainly, New York and Boston are tough places but they do pale into insignificance beside Osaka. Fans don't just apply pressure on the manager but on the front office, the club officials and the higher ups of the parent company as well. If he had a level of good will yes I would agree with you but he is intensely disliked by Tigers fans and that would be his starting point. If he followed the usual pattern of Tigers managers recently (a poor first season) things would rapidly build up to really intolerable levels.
Re: August 16th Shimoyanagi v Takahashi - Brazell wins the game
[ Author: Guest: JC | Posted: Aug 21, 2009 7:18 PM
]
"New York and Boston are tough places but they do pale into insignificance beside Osaka."
Absolute nonsense. I have lived in both New York and Osaka and I can tell you, New York is a stage like no other. If you want to take an example of fans pressuring the front office. The Mets ownership, the Wilpons, are notoriously infamous for listening to their fanbase which has lead to a completely dysfunctional front office with no clear "chain of command."
While I agree Valentine would not be a good fit for Hanshin, I completely disagree with your point of Osaka having more pressure than New York. Have you personally experienced it or followed the New York media? Take it from someone who has. I do believe you make some other sound points which I agree with. Valentine and Hanshin ownership spells really bad chemistry.
Absolute nonsense. I have lived in both New York and Osaka and I can tell you, New York is a stage like no other. If you want to take an example of fans pressuring the front office. The Mets ownership, the Wilpons, are notoriously infamous for listening to their fanbase which has lead to a completely dysfunctional front office with no clear "chain of command."
While I agree Valentine would not be a good fit for Hanshin, I completely disagree with your point of Osaka having more pressure than New York. Have you personally experienced it or followed the New York media? Take it from someone who has. I do believe you make some other sound points which I agree with. Valentine and Hanshin ownership spells really bad chemistry.
Re: August 16th Shimoyanagi v Takahashi - Brazell wins the game
[ Author: Christopher | Posted: Aug 21, 2009 9:26 PM
| HAN Fan
]
Ah yes but with Hanshin we are talking about Tigers fans phoning up the Hanshin group president at 2am. When Fuji-san was president of the Bank of Japan he was bothered by Tigers fans (they knew he was a Hanshin fan and assumed that he had influence with the club). Hankyu seriously considered dumping Mayumi in July due to pressure from the Tigers fans. (Hankyu are the owners of the Hanshin group but do not have direct input into the company). The fans were contacting the company in droves and the President of Hankyu was being bothered quite a lot. Have a look at what happened to Don Blasingame in his second year of management. We can argue this point but I think that when you actually try and use the President of the Bank of Japan it really is getting crazy.
Re: August 16th Shimoyanagi v Takahashi - Brazell wins the game
[ Author: Guest: JC | Posted: Aug 21, 2009 9:41 PM
]
Sorry, fan protests like this aren't isolated to Japanese baseball. Now getting back to your original statement that "New York pales in comparison." So correct me if I'm wrong but are you stating that the pressure and media attention in NYC is remarkably less than in Osaka? So would you go as far as to say Osaka is the toughest city in the world to play/manage baseball?
This is an extraordinary claim. Could you please outline your experience following NY baseball and the NY media just so I can understand where you are coming from? You're yet to cite anything about NY baseball, yet you're comfortable making such a claim when you haven't provided any examples about it.
If Mayumi was managing the Yankees or the Mets the way he has been, he would have been run out of town a long time ago and if you know anything about sport in the Big Apple you would already know that. Still think the pressure "pales in comparison"? However, I think the argument is academic as such a poorly-credentialed individual would never have landed the job in the first place.
This is an extraordinary claim. Could you please outline your experience following NY baseball and the NY media just so I can understand where you are coming from? You're yet to cite anything about NY baseball, yet you're comfortable making such a claim when you haven't provided any examples about it.
If Mayumi was managing the Yankees or the Mets the way he has been, he would have been run out of town a long time ago and if you know anything about sport in the Big Apple you would already know that. Still think the pressure "pales in comparison"? However, I think the argument is academic as such a poorly-credentialed individual would never have landed the job in the first place.
Re: August 16th Shimoyanagi v Takahashi - Brazell wins the game
[ Author: Christopher | Posted: Aug 21, 2009 9:59 PM
| HAN Fan
]
I think you misunderstand - it is not media pressure but fan pressure applied to officials which is the problem. You are certainly right about Mayumi though and here I credit New Yorkers with much more adaptability and perception than Japanese management. This would also serve them well in appointing a new manager. Whilst the Hanshin management will protect Mayumi because he is a 'famous old boy' outsiders do not receive such protection.
The toughest job in baseball is in fact managing Hanshin Tigers but it has become so only recently. In the past Tigers could get away with a monkey in a Tigers suit but Hoshino and Okada showed them they could win. This is fatal - if you can win and you are starved of victories before you tend to be over-reactive if you return to your former state. Okada delivered a lot of good performances but eventually gave up due to fan pressure - it was that bad.
The toughest job in baseball is in fact managing Hanshin Tigers but it has become so only recently. In the past Tigers could get away with a monkey in a Tigers suit but Hoshino and Okada showed them they could win. This is fatal - if you can win and you are starved of victories before you tend to be over-reactive if you return to your former state. Okada delivered a lot of good performances but eventually gave up due to fan pressure - it was that bad.
Re: August 16th Shimoyanagi v Takahashi - Brazell wins the game
[ Author: Guest: JC | Posted: Aug 22, 2009 9:07 AM
]
I think it is you that misunderstands. When you say "fan pressure applied to officials which is the problem." New York has plenty of that. While Hanshin certainly attracts its lunatic fringe of fans as do New York teams, overall I think Hanshin fans are much more patient and respectful. Again, it seems apparent that you don't really know what it's like in New York. Your failure to address my questions about your knowledge of and experience with NY baseball highlights the fact.
Hanshin is the toughest job in baseball hey? An extraordinary claim. Surely there must be some people out there who have lived in New York or at least closely followed New York baseball. I'd be interested to hear what people with knowledge of Japanese baseball AND New York baseball would have to say. Anyone?
Hanshin is the toughest job in baseball hey? An extraordinary claim. Surely there must be some people out there who have lived in New York or at least closely followed New York baseball. I'd be interested to hear what people with knowledge of Japanese baseball AND New York baseball would have to say. Anyone?
Re: August 16th Shimoyanagi v Takahashi - Brazell wins the game
[ Author: Christopher | Posted: Aug 22, 2009 10:28 AM
| HAN Fan
]
Actually there is a very dark side to Japanese baseball fans which is often glossed over. People assume that they are nice and respectable and on the surface it can seem so but this is an illusion. Players and coaches come in for a lot of abuse (like New York) but do New York fans throw bottles at their own players if the fail to perform? Hanshin fans are actually extremely disrespectful and merciless to the players and coaches. Koshien used to have barbed wire barriers around the field to protect the players from the fans. In this respect fans have become better but you are still dealing with a very passionate group. The chapter 'A history' in Robert Whiting's book 'You gotta have wa' is very relevant here. Whilst things have changed significantly the level of dedication and commitment shown is still prevalent in Japanese baseball and in fan groups. Here I think is where the misunderstanding occurs. I would suspect that New York fans do not have the same kind of organised cheering group that exists in Japan and with it the same kind of focused passion. The group is the important entity in Japan not the individual. There exists in Japanese baseball an intensity which is not reproduced to the same degree in America. That is not to say things don't get pretty intense in American baseball but that they can't reach the same heights. Would American fans hijack a train as Hanshin fans famously once did?
Re: August 16th Shimoyanagi v Takahashi - Brazell wins the game
[ Author: Guest: JC | Posted: Aug 22, 2009 8:38 PM
]
I'm a big fan of Robert Whiting's books. As for organized cheering groups, they do exist in New York Christopher. Although they don't have the ridiculous political machinations of the Japanese ones, the Bleacher Creatures at Yankee Stadium are simply one example.
The benign "hijacking" of a train is anecdotal evidence to support your argument but doesn't suggest a trend. Hijacking indeed! Not what I would call a hijacking anyway. I have been to several hundred games in Japan and never seen a stadium collectively boo a team. Where do you think the expression "Bronx cheer" came from? Even at Koshien, outside of the gaiya, the alps and naiya are pretty tame. Like I said, much more respectful than NY fans. I think you like focusing on the less than 1% of fans that are unruly. One thing I will say, I've been to probably 400 to 500 games in Japan and all incidents of violence have seen involved Hanshin fans but they "pale in comparison" to what I've seen in the states. Throwing things is not uncommon in the states either Christopher. It wasn't that long ago a couple of first base umpires were assaulted during the game on the south side of Chicago.
Again, while you seem well versed in the Japanese game you seem very unfamiliar with MLB so I find it perplexing that you would make such an extraordinary comparison when it is clear you have little to no knowledge regarding MLB. My buddy who introduced me to this site tells me you don't even live in Osaka, grew up in England and have stated in the past that you have no interest in MLB.
So how can you make a comparison between two entities when you nothing about one of them?
Please address my last question.
The benign "hijacking" of a train is anecdotal evidence to support your argument but doesn't suggest a trend. Hijacking indeed! Not what I would call a hijacking anyway. I have been to several hundred games in Japan and never seen a stadium collectively boo a team. Where do you think the expression "Bronx cheer" came from? Even at Koshien, outside of the gaiya, the alps and naiya are pretty tame. Like I said, much more respectful than NY fans. I think you like focusing on the less than 1% of fans that are unruly. One thing I will say, I've been to probably 400 to 500 games in Japan and all incidents of violence have seen involved Hanshin fans but they "pale in comparison" to what I've seen in the states. Throwing things is not uncommon in the states either Christopher. It wasn't that long ago a couple of first base umpires were assaulted during the game on the south side of Chicago.
Again, while you seem well versed in the Japanese game you seem very unfamiliar with MLB so I find it perplexing that you would make such an extraordinary comparison when it is clear you have little to no knowledge regarding MLB. My buddy who introduced me to this site tells me you don't even live in Osaka, grew up in England and have stated in the past that you have no interest in MLB.
So how can you make a comparison between two entities when you nothing about one of them?
Please address my last question.
Re: August 16th Shimoyanagi v Takahashi - Brazell wins the game
[ Author: Christopher | Posted: Aug 22, 2009 10:59 PM
| HAN Fan
]
To address your last question - one does not hear about trouble from fans (apart from random craziness) in the American press. You seem to think that people cannot read and research. I recommended that chapter as it is a good explanation of just what level of intensity is involved. This is entirely missing from the American game. Another example (though not Tigers) Daiei fans attacking the team coach because they were unhappy with the team performance (this one is not anecdotal but filmed). But I mentioned the bottle thowing (which group of fans do you think are throwing at the dugouts?) - not the gaia. You would like to believe that somehow things are more passionate in the US but this is not the case. Which brings me back to the main point - nothing Valentine has experienced so far would prepare him for managing at Koshien. As I have said and as you seem to have missed the pressure doesn't just affect the team but the parent company and the executives of that company. You need to move beyond your stereotypes of Japanese fans and look at them as they actually are.
Re: August 16th Shimoyanagi v Takahashi - Brazell wins the game
[ Author: Guest: JC | Posted: Aug 23, 2009 8:56 AM
]
No stereotypes here! I call it experience. 13 years in Japan and several hundred games, I think that's a fair sample size. Isolated incidents are not a trend as I mentioned before. Like I said, the vast majority of fans are not bottle throwing disrespectful brawlers.
Re: August 16th Shimoyanagi v Takahashi - Brazell wins the game
[ Author: ht_fan | Posted: Aug 22, 2009 9:45 PM
| HAN Fan
]
> ...I'd be interested
> to hear what people with knowledge of Japanese
> baseball AND New York baseball would have to say.
> Anyone?
I want to reply to you not that much as a Mets fan and Hanshin fan, but more as somebody who's been on the Net for some 15 years now, and therefore has learnt to recognize a troll when he sees one.
Your only "contributions" here have been repeated provocations and flames attempts aimed against Christopher, who is providing all us english-speaking Hanshin fans with a great service and therefore deserves all the gratefulness and respect of the world.
One last thing: no matter how disrespectful and offensive your eventual reply will be (knowing you, it'll sure be), I'm not gonna reply to you anymore. Rule #1 with people like you after all is: "don't feed the troll". So, let's get lost.
> to hear what people with knowledge of Japanese
> baseball AND New York baseball would have to say.
> Anyone?
I want to reply to you not that much as a Mets fan and Hanshin fan, but more as somebody who's been on the Net for some 15 years now, and therefore has learnt to recognize a troll when he sees one.
Your only "contributions" here have been repeated provocations and flames attempts aimed against Christopher, who is providing all us english-speaking Hanshin fans with a great service and therefore deserves all the gratefulness and respect of the world.
One last thing: no matter how disrespectful and offensive your eventual reply will be (knowing you, it'll sure be), I'm not gonna reply to you anymore. Rule #1 with people like you after all is: "don't feed the troll". So, let's get lost.
Re: August 16th Shimoyanagi v Takahashi - Brazell wins the game
[ Author: Guest: JC | Posted: Aug 22, 2009 11:31 PM
]
"So, let's get lost."
Now that is disrespectul. Could you please point out to me where I was insulting and disrespectful? I actually gave Christopher credit regarding his knowledge of Japanese baseball (would a troll do that) however I suspect he isn't in touch with MLB.
I respectfully disagreed with Christopher as he did with me. We both supported our arguments yet you come on and attack me after I simply asked for alternative opinions. I only see one troll here. Grow up and post something with substance.
Now that is disrespectul. Could you please point out to me where I was insulting and disrespectful? I actually gave Christopher credit regarding his knowledge of Japanese baseball (would a troll do that) however I suspect he isn't in touch with MLB.
I respectfully disagreed with Christopher as he did with me. We both supported our arguments yet you come on and attack me after I simply asked for alternative opinions. I only see one troll here. Grow up and post something with substance.
Re: August 16th Shimoyanagi v Takahashi - Brazell wins the game
[ Author: Guest: N26 | Posted: Aug 17, 2009 7:12 AM
]
A good win by Tigers. Brazell is proving to be a quality player with his hustle, bat and glove. He could be in O'Malley, or even Bass category if he continues the way he does. I really like what I have seen of him so far. Seems to be a friendly guy too. Here is Brazell's post game interview
http://www.youtube.com/user/rmpp7#play/uploads/10/GZSdgPC5C0g
Since I don't have the chance to follow Japanese baseball very closely due to living abroad, I have not seen that many Hanshin games, however, I was able to see this game and one thing which suprised me is the amount of velocity Fujikawa has lost from say one or two years ago. A few years ago his fast balls would be somewhere between 150-155. In this game he hit 150 once. He was usually around 145. He is clearly not the same pitcher as he was a couple of years ago. At one point he was unhittable now he looks more like a mediocre relief pitcher.
In 8th inning, the heart of the line up was coming up so maybe Mayumi thought he needed to put Fujikawa already in the 8th. Fujikawa also have pitched much less innings this year so I don't think fatigue is an issue for Fujikawa at this point unlike last season.
http://www.youtube.com/user/rmpp7#play/uploads/10/GZSdgPC5C0g
Since I don't have the chance to follow Japanese baseball very closely due to living abroad, I have not seen that many Hanshin games, however, I was able to see this game and one thing which suprised me is the amount of velocity Fujikawa has lost from say one or two years ago. A few years ago his fast balls would be somewhere between 150-155. In this game he hit 150 once. He was usually around 145. He is clearly not the same pitcher as he was a couple of years ago. At one point he was unhittable now he looks more like a mediocre relief pitcher.
In 8th inning, the heart of the line up was coming up so maybe Mayumi thought he needed to put Fujikawa already in the 8th. Fujikawa also have pitched much less innings this year so I don't think fatigue is an issue for Fujikawa at this point unlike last season.
Re: August 16th Shimoyanagi v Takahashi - Brazell wins the game
[ Author: Jbroks86 | Posted: Aug 18, 2009 2:07 PM
| SFT Fan
]
With all respect to Brazell, he gots a long way to he matches the insane numbers that Bass put up or even IMO win the hearts of the Hanshin fan faithful like Bass. I'm afraid he would have put insane numbers up for years to be the player Bass was.
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Some rights reserved.
Starting lineups
Tigers
1. Akahoshi (Centre)
2. Hirano (Second)
3. Toritani (Short)
4. Kanemoto (Left)
5. Arai (Third)
6. Brazell (First)
7. Sakurai (Right)
8. Yano (Catcher)
9. Shimoyanagi (Pitcher)
Giants
1. Sakamoto (Short)
2. Takuya Kimura (Second)
3. Abe (First)
4. Ramirez (Left)
5. Kamei (Centre)
6. Tani (Right)
7. Tsuruoka (Pitcher)
8. Furuki (Third)
9. Hisanori Takahashi (Pitcher)
Takahashi would struggle in the early stages and even though he settled down in the fourth and fifth innings his first three would be fraught with worries. He started well in the Tigers first, Akahoshi struck out looking and to be honest he was well off his game striking out four times of which three were looking. Hirano struck out swinging but then things went wrong. Takahashi walked Toritani and then Kanemoto. Arai hit to short and the bases were loaded. Brazell though failed to exploit this and struck out swinging to end the innings. Giants first was quiet as Shimoyanagi retired the batters 1-2-3. Tigers second was also quiet with the last batter, Shimoyanagi grounding out to end the innings. First batter for the Giants second was Ramirez, he swung nicely at his second pitch, a slider depositing it in the left stand for a solo home run 1-0 Giants. Kamei grounded out but Tani hit. However, Shimoyanagi induced a double play from Tsuruoka to end the innings. Takahashi's third innings was a nightmare. Akahoshi hit to Takuya Kimura who allowed the ball to slip under his glove and Akahoshi used his speed to reach second. In this situation Hirano's bunt was brilliant taking the runner to third. Then Toritani stepped up and dropped his second pitch nicely to left for a timely hit 1-1 scores tied. Kanemoto hit to set up runners on first and second but Arai flew out. This brought up Brazell who hammered his second pitch, a sinker into the right stand for a three run home run 4-1 Tigers. Sakurai hit to third but the second error of the innings allowed him to make first safely. However, Yano grounded out. Giants tried to fight back. Furuki led off their third with a hit to centre. He was bunted to second by Takahashi but Sakamoto flew out to left. This, though, did take Furuki to third as he tagged up and ran nicely. Takuya Kimura walked which set up runners on the corners with Abe next. He launched an enormous hit which flew to the wall where Akahoshi took a superbly timed jumping catch to end the innings. The first piece of superb fielding which definitely saved a run.
Tigers fourth was quiet as the batters fell in order. In Giants fourth Ramirez grounded out to short which brought up Kamei. He has been hitting well and hammered his second pitch into the right stand. This was an enormous hit landing in the highest levels of Tokyo Dome 4-2 Tigers. Both Tani and Tsuruoka tried to drive up the momentum but both flew out and the innings was over. Tigers still had a two run lead. In Tigers fifth Kanemoto hit to right but then neither Arai or Brazell moved him round. This was Takahashi's last innings - he had thrown 95 pitches and despite his improved performance in the fourth and fifth would have been questionable for another innings. With two out in Giants fifth Sakamoto hit to centre. Then Takuya Kimura hit past Toritani who not only took the ball brilliantly on the run but also turned and threw perfectly to Hirano for the final out, Sakamoto going for second - end of innings. Shota Kimura took the mound for the Tigers sixth. He was quite effective - he did give up a hit to Yano who surprisingly stole second (this was an umpiring mistake as Yano was tagged out well before he reached second) but then was able to get Akahoshi with a very fine pitch to end the innings. Mayumi wisely didn't risk Shimoyanagi with the Giants sixth. He had been giving away too many deep flies for comfort and even someone as cotton-headed as Mayumi could see that it was too much of a risk. Egusa took the mound and had to work quite hard to keep the Giants off the scoreboard. His first batter was Abe who hit to left. Ramirez flew out to second and then Egusa struck out Kamei with a superb pitch that had him completed flummoxed. Tani walked though to set up runners on first and second but Tsuruoka hit his first pitch straight to Toritani who made no mistake. End of innings.
Shota Kimura returned for Tigers seventh and walked Toritani with one out. Kimura then battled Kanemoto before striking him out brilliantly but as he did so Toritani tried to steal second. Tsuruoka's throw was excellent and Toritani was well out to end the innings. For Giants seventh Tigers pitcher was Atchison who was on form. Even so he needed some good fielding. With one out Matsumoto (pinch hitter) bounced a pitch over him. Hirano running in took the ball and jumped making the throw in mid air to get the second out. Sakamoto then flew out to right, Sakurai juggling the catch but holding onto it to end the innings. Toyoda replaced Shota Kimura for the Tigers eighth and was immediately in trouble. He gave up a two base hit to Arai who once again benefited from poor fielding by Takuya Kimura, who let the ball get away from him though this was not ruled an error. Next batter Brazell who hammered his second pitch to right. Tani made an attempt to take it right at the wall but the ball was too high and he missed it. What was amazing is that Arai somehow only managed to make one base on what was a two base hit. This was poor running and poor direction by the third base coach. Tigers now had runners on second and third with no outs but they should have had a run. Hiyama (pinch hitting) was next and he struck out looking being completely befuddled by a Toyoda straight ball. Yano was deliberately walked to load the bases and then Hara switched pitchers to Fujita. Mayumi had originally intended to use Katsuragi as a pinch hitter for Atchison but switched his pitchers and sent Takahashi to the plate instead. This was a wise move as Takahashi bounced one over third for a hit driving in a run 5-2 Tigers bases loaded. It is likely that Brazell could have also made home but he was held up probably to allow Akahoshi the honour of driving in a run. This didn't work - Akahoshi struck out looking. Finally, Hirano flew out in foul ground to end the innings about which the overwhelming impression was that more could have been scored with better management. Having used a pinch hitter in place of Atchison, Mayumi was left with a gap and so used Fujikawa in the Giants eighth. He started with a hit but then Abe grounded into a double play to extinguish the runner. Then Ramirez flew out to Brazell to end the innings. If Mayumi hadn't used Tsutsui as a starter the night before he would have had the requisite relief pitcher available and wouldn't have needed to use his closer in relief. Toritani started Tigers ninth with a hit and then after Kanemoto struck out Fujita was replaced by Nomaguchi. He then got the next two outs without Toritani advancing beyond first. Fujikawa returned for Giants ninth. Kamei he struck out but he couldn't get Tani to bite and the latter walked. However he had more success with Suzuki (pinch hitter) and Furuki who both struck out swinging. Tigers victory.
A very nice victory for the Tigers who had taken and held the lead. Shimoyanagi had lasted five innings and only managed to give up two runs and he picked up the victory. The save went to Fujikawa, No. 14 but was it really necessary to pitch him for two innings? This seems to indicate poor planning and a gap in the relief because Tsutsui is being misused. The mismanagement of the eighth was also disturbing and so we cannot consider this gem of a victory to be perfect. More could have been done with the Tigers fine performance.